Episode #93: Female Role Models in Harry Potter
In this week’s episode we discussed the idea of female role models in the Harry Potter series. It is somewhat ironic that JK Rowling, a female author, chose to create a wonderful male role model as her main character. Many people have complained that there is a serious lack of quality feminist role models in the Harry Potter Series. Whether you agree or disagree with that, it is an interesting discussion to have. One critic of the feminine characters in Harry Potter is Elizabeth Heilman who wrote the essay titled, “Blue Wizards and Pink Witches: Representations of Gender Identity and Power.” She presented this essay at the HPEF conference, Nimbus 2003. Obviously, the series wasn’t complete when she offered her thoughts, but excerpts from the essay are a great springboard for an interesting discussion on the female characters of Harry Potter.
As always we look forward to hearing from you. You can leave comments here on the blog or send in your voicemails to 206-337-0357 in the US or 07092899490 in the UK. Please make sure to keep the message as close to one minute as possible and try to speak loudly and clearly.
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Tags: female characters in Harry Potter, Feminism in Harry Potter, Harry Potter and Imagination, Hermione Granger, Professor McGonnagal, Travis Prinzi
November 15th, 2008 at 5:55 am
Hey, just to comment, I am one of your ‘younger’ listeners as I am in my teens.
I really liked your discussion on role models and I agree with your point that there is not one generic role model and it depends on who it is. Personaly my role model is Luna, and this is because she is not afraid to be something different than who she really is. It is something I had to deal with when I told my friends over my obbsession over Harry Potter. When Elizabeth Heilman wrote that paper, you did not know who Luna was as she was introduced in the 5th book. But I don’t think Luna is a very normal role model either, so I do not think that Elizabeth would have believed that Luna is a good role model (if that made any sense).
Love the show, as I am studying English Lit right now at school this podcast really helps me understand the deeper meanings of literature, not just in Harry Potter.
November 15th, 2008 at 3:00 pm
Hey guys,
As one of your teen listeners, I found it my duty to report back to you about my personal role model. I am a male, but I oddly found Hermionie as my role model. I wanted to be as smart, as cunning, and as loyal as she was to Harry and Ron. Hermionie is a great role model for anyone honestly. She shows what it means to excel in the world and also how to have fun and be a great friend. The thesis paper that was written I found to be stupid and completely one sided. I thought that she did not go deeper into the characters and only took one side of their story. I believe that the women have a strong purpose in the book, and even though Harry is the “main” character, I believe that Hermionie is just as important as he is.
My drama teacher listens to the podcast and we had to write a paper about what would happen to a piece of literature if the genders had been switched and i obviously chose Harry Potter. It is something very interesting to think about..Would the books be any different if Harry was a girl?? I took some of the main characters and swapped their sex and if was really interesting thing to think about.
I would love an episode dedicated to Hermionie…she is such a crucial character in the books and she is so deep. I am looking forward to that!! Great podcast!!
November 15th, 2008 at 5:48 pm
I think Hermione is a good role model for girls. They thing that strike me the most about her is that she is independent. She takes her studies seriously even though it would make her more popular to slack off and pursue frivolous pursuits.
I don’t think she took are looks too seriously. Even though she dressed up for the ball she thought it was too much trouble for every day. I think Viktor liked her because she wasn’t chasing him or superficial enough to be taken in my his celebrity.
I thought what she did with SPEW showed independence and a good heart.
I think Luna is a good role model in that she lives to please herself and is not concerned with conforming.
The mothers are good role models as well. The thing I thought that was interesting about this world is that they magical kids do not go to school until they are eleven. That means someone (mom, apparently) has to stay home to care for them.
Good topic - worthy of discussion.
November 15th, 2008 at 11:28 pm
You guys rock. Thanks so much for the plug and for the very kind words!
Unbeknownst to you, you picked a great topic for the podcast on which you first plugged my book. I’ve got a whole chapter on gender portrayals in Harry Potter, and I wrestle with Heilman’s work in that chapter. The chapter explores 6 feminist readings of different aspects of the Harry Potter stories (including a whole section on mothers).
Did anyone notice that the fountain in the Ministry that “told a lie” also told a lie about gender roles as well? It’s really subtle, but brilliant on Rowling’s part. Look it up.
Heilman’s essay, by the way, after appearing at Nimbus 2003, was included in the book she edited, Harry Potter’s World, which was updated this year under the name, Critical Perspectives on Harry Potter. I haven’t seen the updated version, so I don’t know if she’s updated that essay with the new information from the later books.
November 16th, 2008 at 9:48 am
[...] thanks to Greg and Penny for their very kind words and plug for my book in Episode #93. Episode #93 is well worth your time, and I wrote an entire chapter on this issue - feminist [...]
November 16th, 2008 at 9:40 pm
It took me a while to think of a remarkable, independent female in Harry Potter, but what about Ginny Weasley? At first, she was a bit shy around her crush during the first few books, and maybe she poured her heart out into a soul. However, later on, from around book 5-ish, she struck me as a very admirable character in that she was very strongly opinionated and tough. She’s not your average teenage girl, and pursues what she wants. Later on she plays professional Quidditch, and I think she writes for the Daily Prophet or something as a sports columnist; all the while we can assume she’s a good mother to three kids.
But what I really like about Jo’s characters is that they are (at least the nicer ones) people we can look to as role models, regardless of gender. I think a bit of everyone would make a pretty nice person. Characters like Luna, McGonagoll, Hermione, and Molly all have character traits that are of the type people would want in themselves. I think women can look to Harry as a role model, or boys to Hermione, or adults to Luna. Jo has built very strong, powerful characters, of all genders and ages and roels in society.
November 17th, 2008 at 1:13 pm
At first when I heard that someone accused the Harry Potter series of having no strong women i thought “yeah… thats true, Hermione is crying in almost every book and almost every female character on the side of good ends up married with kids.” But then I thought about it a little bit deeper whilst listening to your podcast. I think that a lot of women these days tend to believe that a girl is not a good role model unless she is tough, unemotional and completely self-reliant. Basically acting like a stereotypical man. This is completely unfair in my opinion because even though Hermione is emotional, she was brave and was exceptionally loyal to her friends. If that is not something to admire I don’t know what is! And now that I think about it, if Elizabeth Heilman’s view of a positive role model for women is tough, unemotional and completely self-reliant, then lets all worship Bellatrix Lestrange!
November 17th, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Hi Greg and Penny! Its so good to here from you again!! I was beginning to worry. I’m still listening to the show, excellent by the way. Small point, i have to say, I agree with Penny when it comes to the Old Man and the Sea. I had to read it in as a freshman in high school. I only read one chapter, but it was still enough to make me want to burn every copy of the book in existence ( yea Greg, I took it).
November 17th, 2008 at 5:05 pm
Hey guys, I just listened to the show. Fun to hear your voices again!
I just wanted to chime in, even though I’m in the same “old” demographic as you.
I love the strong, thoughtful, devoted mother characters we see in Molly, Lily, etc. I have on more than one occasion thought of Molly Weasley as I go about my mundane work as a stay-at-home mom, even to the point of remembering how their house was described as shabby and worn, but to Harry’s perspective, it was a place of comfort and much more a “home” than the spotless Dursley house. It seems like JK Rowling really extolls the virtues of placing family and love and the simple pleasures of life as ideal pursuits. This is evident in her own life (she got re-married, had several more babies, and I’ve heard she drives a minivan and does her own grocery shopping!). I think I’ve also heard her stress this in interviews and the documentary, as well as in her writing. It’s interesting that her “happily ever after” epilogue for her hero was not all that glamourous or powerful. It was a rather mundane, ordinary family life that Harry pursued, and “all was well.” She seems to have a rather traditional view of masculine and feminine roles, with strong women who fully embrace their roles as “mother” without being doormats or idiots as some of her best characters. I’m all for it!
November 17th, 2008 at 8:10 pm
(This is Penny- way too lazy to log out and log in again)
I love hearing everyone’s thoughts on this topic! I think everyone is making really good points about the female (and male) role models in Harry Potter. I missed these kinds of discussions. Keep em coming!
November 17th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
I was wondering, Would you consider Rowena Ravenclaw to be a strong female role model? She is not mentioned often, but when she is, she is portrayed as a strong and wise character. I think Mrs. Heilman would also be satisfied with this character, even though she had a family it seems as though both her and her daughter could have been considered feminists in their era. Especially with how the Grey lady treated Harry when he first approached her about the diadem. Just wondering what your thoughts on this are, Thanks
November 18th, 2008 at 3:38 pm
I think there is a subtle difference between having a feminist perspective and having quality female role models. I have to agree with Elizabeth Heilman that Rowling rarely subverts the current patriarchal model. But to be fair to Rowling, this is not her agenda. Instead, Rowling sets up a modern society akin to the world we live in; liberal but still patriarchal in certain aspects.
I find Rowling’s lack of critical feminist analysis to be most apparent in many of the secondary female characters (outside of the trio). For instance, two of the four founders of Wizarding society are women, Helga Hufflepuff and Rowena Ravenclaw. However, analogous to the larger story, both of these women play a backseat role to the larger male character of Gryffindor and Slytherin. We see this relationship repeated over and over again - Prof. McGonnagal/Dumbledore, Bellatrix/Voldemort, Tonks/Lupin, and to a lesser extent, Umbridge/Fudge. These are all strong capable women in their own right, but they are in many ways defined and their roles limited by the men in their lives, or are just less developed then their male counterparts. Also, McGonnagal, Bellatrix and Umbridge all hold lesser positions of power in comparison to their male counterparts.
However, this doesn’t mean that Rowling hasn’t set up any strong female role models. This is most apparent and successful with Hermione and Luna. Both characters have good qualities which make them admirable human beings apart from any conceptions about gender, and, most notably, neither are defined by their relationships to males, nor do they linger in their shadows.
Lastly, it may be the case that Rowling chose to make her main character a white male simply because the neutral palate it offers (although perhaps it was never an outright and overt choice; I would imagine this would play out in a more subconscious manner). Imagine if her main character were an Asian or Black female, for example; what stereotypes and ideas, both subtle and explicit, would readers carry with them as they read her novels? I imagine writers want the greatest freedom possible in developing their characters, so perhaps this was her way of achieving this.
November 18th, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Great episode! It was nice to have another podcast to listen to! (I was beginning to worry…)
But on the topic of female role models, I agree with you guys about Hermione as a role model. She’s strong-willed, independent, a gifted witch, and very intelligent. So she may have some weaknesses (bossiness, especially in PS, for example), but who doesn’t? You guys were talking about her changing her appearance, but I never got that impression… She got all dolled up for the Yule Ball in GoF, but that was it. I feel like she just became more attractive as she got older. That she grew out of her awkward and dorky stage (Look at Emma Watson from CoS to PoA) and that’s when Viktor and Ron were attracted to her (Ron was before, but it was then that it became obvious, in case people didn’t pick it up prior).
I also think that Luna is definitely a role model (for me at least). I think she’s such an interesting character, very quirky and fun. She is a little weird, and she knows people think she is, but she doesn’t change for acceptance. She stays true to herself and isn’t afraid about not conforming to society’s standards.
I also love Prof. McGonagall! I definitely think she is a role model because she’s intelligent, independent, and just all around awesome (hehe). (Plus, she’s got a good sense of humor! “Ahh, which one of you will be dying this year?” and “Have a biscuit, Potter.”) She can also kick some serious ass (not as much as Mrs. Weasley, but still). She may be strict, but she’s still amazing. XD And she is independent, she doesn’t need a man.
November 18th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Adam- good pull. I definitely consider Rowean Ravenclaw a good role model- in the strict feminist sense. Although if you look at her maternal nature, I might have to argue that she sort of failed there. The problem is that there is no one true good female role model- no matter who you aspire to be like…
November 18th, 2008 at 9:08 pm
If Heilman’s updated her paper, hopefully she’s worked on eliminating her own stereotypes of how women should act & how they should live up to a feminist’s standards of what it means to be a woman & how they should find fulfillment.
It doesn’t help us to undo the stereotypes of women from the past if we’re just going to replace them with new stereotypes from a feminarchal point of view. (I know feminarchal isn’t a word, but if we’re going to keep throwing around patriarchal as a pejorative, then we need a pejorative for the opposite error.)
BTW, did I mention that it was a really great podcast, Greg & Penny? Quite an interesting & potentially volatile topic for discussion.
November 19th, 2008 at 1:02 pm
Just relistened to your great podcast and read through all of the comments. I think that some people have gotten upset with Jo’s surface meanings of her treatment of gender roles. Although surface meanings are important, as John Granger points out in his books, there are three other levels of meaning. Hermione fits into her role in the trio of the intellect where as Harry and Ron serve as the soul and body, respectively. Hermione’s personal characteristics also have important alchemical relevance to the story.
At the Harry Potter conference at NIU, the lunchtime keynote speaker, Karley Adney, spoke about characteristics in literature and how they are fixed to masculine and feminine qualities. She argued that Harry because he displays both masculine and feminine characteristics, that he in a sense becomes “trans”gendered and it allows him to defeat Voldemort. This is also similar to the alchemical resolution of contraries John Granger writes about.
Also, in response to Geoff’s comment about Harry’s gender being switched. I think it would be interesting to think about Harry as Harriet and especially how that would affect his relationship with Snape.
November 19th, 2008 at 10:41 pm
I disagree with what you said in that there aren’t strong female role models in this book. I think that there are different types of strong female role models. There isn’t the Xena warrior princess i’m going to do everything myself and not be a stereotypical girl role model. The women in this book are strong at being women. There are strong, wonderful mothers who still find the time to try and save the world. Molly Weasley raises all of her children and is still a member of the Order of Phoenix. That’s a wonderful thing for girls to aspire to. I think that is the role model that J.K. Rowling is trying to portray, and why not? Women these days can be mothers and career women. Hermoine doesn’t change her looks for Krum to like her, he admires here before she dresses up for the ball. And as someone mentioned earlier, Ginny Weasley is a strong feminine character that still finds time to date guys. I think it’s great that J.K. Rowling has reconciled the super-woman with the romantic, because that’s what women really are.
November 21st, 2008 at 2:53 pm
I LOVE YOU GUYS. I really liked your discussion this week on female role models exspecailly that Harry potter in my view has no good strong male role models. Ill get to that later as I go along, but first Jo’s female charaters. I really do love the way Jo has set up her female charcters in her books. She develops themso well you think you grow along with them, from Hermione smarts, to Ginny’s smart mouth, to Luna heart. Jo does a really good job the best thing she could have possiblily done was making the girls plain.
November 21st, 2008 at 3:22 pm
Sorry accidently pressed the submit key. But like i was saying by making the girls and women in these books; book smart, savvy, quick to act and mentally sound she has sent a high bar for female in this image forward western civilzation.
like i said before Harry Potters Male role models leave something to be desired. Yes, yes, yes i know nobodys perfect but unlike thier female counterparts the boys and men in the Harry Potter series leave you with a bitter taste your mouth. For ex. let us take the main characters of the series; Harry, Ron, Neville, Dumbledore, and Snape. (we can X out Voldy because he is just a very bad / snake-like man) Harry has no common sense. the majority of the things and deaths that happen in the book are because of Harry and his choices. If he would take a breath and think things through his story would have gone a different path.(and we probably would have had three books instead of seven). As for Ron he just whines alot and nobody likes a whiner (whispers ” I still love you Ronny Kins” :O). Neville come to be the first real role model out of this list. He starts out a little awkward but turns into a bad ass mama jama. The only sad thing is that it takes him six books to get there. Dumbledore in one word “Trust”. He trust to much. As for Snape, he holds on to the past and doesnt look to the furture. so hope yall have enjoyed reading my novel of writing. Love the show, Penny is my fave and Greg where are my animal crackers. :oD looking forward to the next ep.
November 24th, 2008 at 11:15 am
Hey!! Haven’t commented in a while, but as one of your younger listeners (teens), I thought I had to comment on this episode!! Don’t know if what I’m about to write has already been said, but I’ll say it anyway.
So, Ginny have been huge role model to me. She is, so far as we know, smart, at least reasonably. She is a highly skilled athelete. She is pretty. And she never let the fact that she had a lot of reasons to be stuck up get in her way of her interactions with the people around her. Maybe this is because she comes from a rather humble back ground. I’m not sure if I have learned one specifique lesson from her, but she has had an impact on my life.
(Side note, he isn’t a girl, but Arthur Weasley taught me that sometimes scrapping by doing what you want, and enjoy, is just as good a choice as being extremely successful in a job you don’t enjoy. )
You guys ROCK! Can’t wait for episode 94!
November 27th, 2008 at 4:11 am
I was glad to hear Greg bring up Mists of Avalon, Marion Zimmer Bradley’s retelling of Arthurian legends from the point-of-view of Morgan le Fay.
At Terminus, there was an excellent presentation about the minimization of Ginny Weasley’s role in the saga’s ending. Although she was built up to be a powerful female character, in the end she was relegated to the sidelines and treated as Harry’s ‘war prize.’ It was really fascinating. If you’re able to, I’d recommend you look it up. I believe it was titled: “Ginny Weasley: Girl Next Doormat?” Or something to that effect.
I also want to point out that besides Tonks, other female members of the Order included Hestia Jones, Emmaline Vance, McGonaggall, and Molly Weasley. Hestia and Emmaline were background characters, but still.
See you at Azkatraz! Yay.
December 2nd, 2008 at 3:15 am
I couldn’t disagree more. Some people sometimes, I have found, try to create something where there is not.
Hermione Granger was a geneous. She was one of stars of the whole book. Without her, Harry doesn’t get past book two. She figured out everything throughout the whole series while Harry, sorry but I have to say it, was depressed and whined the whole series. (Sorry, this is coming from a Slytherin)
The there was Luna, who was strong, and smart. A little weird but very intelligent. And lets not forget Proffessor McGannaggle (I cant spell that name) She was cool.
There are some feminists who are not happy unless every major character in anyhting with power are woman.
December 29th, 2008 at 4:17 pm
I don’t know why my computer did not automatically download this episode, but I guess iTunes skipped it or something. Anyways, although it is two episodes later, I felt like commenting on this subject anyways. I am a younger listener as well as a female. I do think Hermione is a very good role model. I think most of the “good” female characters have traits that are admirable. Luna is very much her own person, and she doesn’t conform with what society would consider “normal”. Ginny, as much as I dislike her typical hero’s girlfriend role, is typically a strong person. Even Tonks, who some may argue turned soft in the last two books, had to have been strong and very true to her own sets of morals and beliefs to marry a werewolf. Many feminists will complain that many of the women ended up married with children. And, if those mothers actually do things that feminists want them to do, they are labeled as bad mothers. It’s a no win situation. If Tonks doesn’t fight, she’s now a weak female. If she does, she’s a horribly irresponsible mother. As long as those women are doing it because they want to and not because they “need” a man, then I don’t see the problem.
I, like Greg, would like to know how much of JK Rowling’s own feelings on certain issues went into the story, both conciously and subconciously. When you mentioned her previously being a single mother, I at first though that maybe that’s why alot of the female characters have happy marriages, to avoid having to relive that in her story. However, while Hermione is the character Jo put herself into, I would not be surprised if she voiced some of her opinion on certain issues through Harry, her main character. And Harry goes totally ballistic when Remus tries to leave a pregnant Tonks. I don’t know if she put that in intentionally, but the idea of it intrigues me.
Lastly, while I know this episode was really about the female characters, Penny did read a part of the paper that was talking about the male stereotypes. Personally, I disagree with what she said about the male characters possibly more so than the female ones. That may be because I tend to like the male characters more. Not all of the good male characters are strong, good looking, or even particularly clever. Just using the ones in books 1-4, I can find many that do not fit the male stereotype. Ron is not the most athletic or intelligent, yet he is Harry’s best friend. Neville struggles in school and is not percieved to be at all attractive, and he wins those vital house points for Gryffindor (not to mention his awesomeness in the last book). Remus Lupin is continually described as weak and tired looking with prematurely greying hair, yet he is one of Harry’s role models and for many the best DADA teacher. Oddly enough, those three characters are some of the most beloved in the fandom. Even Harry is lacking physically. He is scrawny and nearly helpless without his glasses. Of course, there’s also Hagrid. He is fairly uneducated and not a looker, but is really Harry’s first friend.
I would also disagree that all the bad male characters are ugly and do not fit the male stereotype, thus we would dislike them regardless. Draco, Lucius Malfoy, and Gilderoy Lockhart are all considered very good looking (for the Malfoys, particularly in the movies). All are extremely rich and successful, but are rotten on the inside.
I really enjoyed the podcast, and I am upset that I didn’t get to hear this episode a month and a half ago when I should have. Great discussion.