Episode #85: Free Will and Choice in Harry Potter
One of the over-arching meta-themes of the Harry Potter books is, without a doubt, choice. From early on the books the theme of choice is empasised, when the Sorting Hat defers to Harry’s wish to be in Gryffindor, or when Dumbledore makes it clear to Harry that it is his choices, far more than abilities that make him the wizard that he is. It’s clear that J.K. Rowling is a proponent of the idea that we make ourselves who we are and are ultimately responsible for who we become.
Putting aside a scientific discussion of free will and determinism, a greater question, from within the stories themselves, comes to light. With the conclusion of Book 7, and the revelation of Dumbledore’s less than altruistic motives, does J.K. Rowling’s position on free will and choice change? Did Harry, in fact, make all those choices of his own free will, or, perhaps, was he influenced by forces beyond his control? Despite Dumbledore’s protestations to the contrary, could Harry ever have avoided the final showdown with the Dark Lord, had he simply chosen to walk away?
In this week’s episode, we examine the nature of free will and choice as presented in the books after Book 7, and what J.K. Rowling might be saying about what it means to be free.
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Check out some of the books we talked about on this week’s episode.
Make sure to check out Penny’s post Deathly Hallows: One Year Later for a rundown on all that’s happened since Book 7 was released.
You can listen to this episode using the player below, or download it directly as an mp3.
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Tags: choice, Deathly Hallows, determinism, free will, Harry Potter, JK Rowling, philosophy
July 24th, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Penny you need to listen to Greg and the rest of the world and go see The Dark Knight! I saw it in Imax and I would highly recommend it. To see the film open on gotham on the full Imax projection is breath taking.
July 24th, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Yay, good discussion! You guys hit on my favorite Harry Potter theme to ponder. I always wind up with the same conclusion: There *is* a choice–nothing about Harry’s (or Voldemort’s) past dictates his future, and if Harry (or Voldemort) were a perfectly rational and unbiased machine, then he could chose any path he wanted–Hallows or Horcruxes, into the forest or out–randomly. But, by virtue of their humanity, they are affected by the past in very predictable ways, according to their individual personalities/mindsets/spirits/whatever. So, even though the choices we make aren’t limited by our pasts or other people, they are constrained by the limits of our own biases–the nature, I guess, of our own minds, not the nurture. I think you guys were spot-on at the end of your discussion when you said that regardless of everything, we have to try to make the best decisions we can, thoughtfully, rather than just going through the motions as easily as we can–which is tough, if you accept the idea that we’re all going to do whatever we’re going to do no matter what anyway. But I think what comes across in Harry Potter is that even if you know that you can’t change who you are at the core (and therefore have no real power over your decisions), you have to refuse to take that as an excuse for not trying your best to think and feel and know that what you’re doing is right. (Harry says something about this near the end of Book 6 but I forget the exact quote–something like being dragged into battle or marching proudly in, and how the difference between those two things) Anyway, I enjoyed this one. Thanks
I like the longer podcasts, by the way. I listen while I run, so the longer they are, the more calories I burn
July 24th, 2008 at 8:16 pm
“But he understood at last what Dumbledore had been trying to tell him. It was, he thought, the difference between being dragged into the arena to face a battle to the death and walking into the arena with your head held high.”.
that comes from my favorite chapter in HBP!
Excellent points, Simone. I think you pretty much summed up what our goal of the conversation was in this episode. Good luck with your running! Good for you.
Diana- I know I should see Dark Knight. I am just not a huge movie person…
July 25th, 2008 at 11:09 am
Hey, I just wanted to leave a comment for greg just letting him know what other villains could be used in the next batman movie. Catwoman and Penguin have teamed up several times in movies and comics, so I think that is the most likely. Other than that, a team up of other minor villians in the DC universe is possible. Unfortunatly, I do not think we will see a new batman movie for a while, because WB is rumored to be working on a Justice League movie, which would take up the actors time, as batman is a key member of the JLA
July 25th, 2008 at 11:18 am
Great episode!!
I was just thinking about “free will and choice” while I was re-reading HPDH but not in regards to Harry but to his friends and others. I believe everything the both of you said was on point but I would love to hear an extension of these ideas onto Ron and Hermione!
While JKR does express these ideas thoughout the book about choices and we all have the power to make them it is not until the last book at least with Ron’s character does she, I believe, really tackle the issue of: if these choices were good or bad. Ron’s role in this is very important because he does leave and contempletes whether he was right in leaving school or continuing on with Harry.
Hermione on the other hand has made her decision. She is decisive throughout as to whether this is the right thing to be doing. Unfortunately for her I feel she has no alternative but to stay with Harry and does not have the freedom to really explore her choices.
I know this is short and not fully explained(?) as is I am at work
! But I would love to hear both of your thoughts on these ideas of free will and choice for other characters…. Neville, Luna, Dobby just to name a few as well as Ron and Hermione. I believe JKR’s ideas about this topic are fully explored not neccesarily in Harry but definitely in how the other characters have made choices.
Thanks !!!!
July 25th, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Hi I’m Yinka long time listener first commenter. :0) I love your discussion on Harry Potter. Actually you are the #1 podcast I listen to for your awesome in-depth discussions. I loved this discussion on free will and choice, and I agree with ya’ll. That free will is a major part of the patterns in Potter. I think, and it might get a little preachy, that people who don’t read Harry Potter bc of the “witchcraft” will be turned around see how much of the Bible is in these books. In every book Harry has a choice to walk away from everything that wizarding world throws at him. Book 1 he has a choice to saved the Sorcerer’s Stone from Snape/Querill/Voldermont. Book 2 has a choice to saved Ron’s sister Ginny. I don’t know about ya’ll but risking my life for my “best friend, which I’ve known for a year, sister I barely know” I don’t know if many of us would have done that. Book 3 as Greg said a choice to let Wormtail go and not kill him. Book 4 a choice to grab the cup with Cedric. If not of this choice Cedric would be alive. Book 5 a choice not to try occlumency with Snape, if he had learn to close his mind “granted Snape did not show him how to” Sirius would not have died. Book 6 the choice to see Voldermont as he really was. He could have refused to see Voldie as the murdered of his parents which he reminded us of in every single book time and again and used an AK at the end of book 7. Book 7 is as Penny said the Horcruxes or the Hallows. Just like Harry Potter God gives us free will the power of choices. If not Jesus would not have to die on the cross for own sins. We on this earth would be like his angels who don’t have a choice but to worship him all the time. For example in Genesis with Abraham and Isaac, when God told him to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham had a choice to do what God asked or not to. But he did and now He is the Father of Many Nations. Well I’m rambling like Greg on last week podcast. I look forward to more episodes. The only complaint that I have is that it is too short could ya’ll maybe make the cast at least an hour. Thank for reading. By the PENNY RULES!!! You rock too Greg. Hehe.
)
July 26th, 2008 at 2:15 am
The Dark Knight was AWESOME! I want to go back and see it in IMAX because I read that certain scenes were filmed for IMAX.
I’ve heard that Nolan definitely does NOT want to include Penguin in his films. I’ve also heard speculations of other actors playing the Joker (which would be stepping into one giant pair of clown shoes if you ask me). Also (SPOILER ALERTS) I’ve heard speculation of Two-Face making a reappearance, of Reese being the Riddler (Mister Reese- Mysteries), as well as other Dark Knight characters playing the Riddler. There’s also been Mad Hatter speculation (the guys who shot the mayor), there was some Catwoman allusion in the movie, Apparently Nolan is trying to keep his series “more realistic” than previous Batman series. I personally think that Poison Ivy would be the coolest villain.
Sorry that this had absolutely nothing to do with Harry Potter, just responding to Greg’s call for Batman 3 speculations.
I enjoyed the podcast. My opinion on free will is: does it matter? In terms of Harry Potter exclusively, perhaps Harry’s path was manipulated completely by the actions and decisions of others, but, because of his ignorance of many of these factors for most of his life, he believes that he is making decisions autonomously. Maybe Dumbledore did have a plan for Harry since the day he left him at Privet Drive, maybe even from the day he heard the prophecy, but in his ignorance, Harry still made the choices that Dumbledore allegedly knew he would make.
July 27th, 2008 at 11:24 am
Penny – Thanks for the quote. That might actually be my favorite chapter of the whole series… although picking one is pretty impossible.
Since you guys were talking about other stuff you’ve been reading lately, I wanted to tell you guys about this networking site I just found – goodreads.com. It allows you to create a profile, a little like Facebook or Myspace, but then you can post all the books you’ve read, are reading, and plan to read. You can also rate, review, and discuss the books you’ve read, and you can see everyone else’s reviews too. It would be a cool way for you guys to be able to share your thoughts on non-HP literature with your listeners, and maybe even entice us to pick up a few of your favorites.
Probably that made me sound like I work for goodreads.com, but I don’t, I just think it’s really cool and I just discovered it recently
July 29th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Well I went and saw Batman today. Needeless to say Greg was as wrong about the joker and chaos as he was about moral ambiguity. Perhaps it is a vitamin deficancy, or there is something in those animal crackers.
You want to know how I got these scars? Hmmmmmm make something up.
August 2nd, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Just finally got around to listening to this one. Surprised there isn’t a buzzing conversation! Great podcast, and lots of incredible food for thought. Being something of a poor calvinist, I’ve been all around the free will vs. fate debate, so I don’t want to revisit that. I’ve got some Dumbledore thoughts, though.
I listened to the podcast earlier, so I probably don’t remember all the points I wanted to make. But I wanted to offer an alternative perspective on Dumbledore; we’ll see if this can get conversation going a bit more!
The first thing I’d want to suggest is that Aberforth is not the best judge of Albus’s character. Aberforth was bitter, and one cannot let bitterness fester for that long (depending on which age for Dumbledore is the right one, anywhere between 80 – 130 years!) and have keen judgment about the person whom you haven’t forgiven. Aberforth is cynical and jaded, and does not accept the possibility that Albus has changed.
Second, I’d also suggest that Albus would have sacrificed himself on the Astronomy Tower, Ring-crux blunder or not. I don’t think Albus ever held onto the notion that he wanted to save himself while sacrificing others; I just think he always knew there would come a time for him to sacrifice himself, and he had to wait for the right time.
Third, I think it’s fair to say that Albus did apologize to Harry for not telling him the whole story ahead of time. When Albus apologizes to Harry, he explains that his reason for not telling him everything was that he was afraid Harry’s hot head would have gotten ahead of his good heart. (I happen to agree with Albus here, and don’t think the apology was needed.)
Fourth, I don’t see what Albus did with Harry as “manipulation.” What choice did Albus have? He didn’t make Harry the horcrux. One way or another, Harry was going to have to face the choice: to sacrifice himself, or to run. Albus orchestrated when that choice would happen; and that’s really the only matter we can debate. The choice itself was inevitable.
Finally, the most important reason Albus had to withhold information from Harry was that Harry had to make his choice to die willingly and for his friends who were still alive. Remember – and this is the key point – Albus knows that Harry is not going to die for real; that’s what the gleam of triumph was all about. But the only way for Harry’s sacrifice to actually work is for it to be a willing sacrifice. “But I meant to let him kill me!” Harry said. “And that,” Dumbledore said, “will have made all the difference.” If Harry had sacrificed himself either (a) for Dumbledore’s sake, or (b) with the full knowledge that would not really be dying, it would not have been a willing sacrifice on behalf of his friends – which means his friends would not have been protected from Voldemort. So, in reality, there was no other way for Harry to “do what my mother did” than for Dumbledore to have set it up precisely has he did – with himself out of the picture, with Harry angry with him (so it wouldn’t be for Dumbledore’s sake), and with his friends’ lives on the line.
August 2nd, 2008 at 11:20 pm
Not to be Mr. Disagreement – again, loved the podcast! – but I think it’s just as likely that Rowling hasn’t read Le Guin. She said in 2000 that she’s never been a big fantasy fan – “I don’t really like fantasy. It’s not so much that I don’t like it, I really haven’t read a lot of it.”
Le Guin, on the other hand, thinks Rowling took her idea, and she’s a touch upset: “When grownups sit around saying that there’s never been anything like Harry Potter, well, gee, I had a wizard school in 1968… And Rowling has certainly read me; it’s obvious she’s read me.”
I see the parallels, but I don’t think it’s that “obvious,” or that it’s certain that Rowling got those ideas from Le Guin. It’s not like once one person has an idea (i.e., a wizarding school) that no one else in history can possibly come up with that idea independently. I started writing ideas for a 7 part series of books a few years back. After sketching out all my ideas and starting the writing process, I found several of the key ideas and plot points in other stories I hadn’t read previously (including Le Guin, in fact!).
August 18th, 2008 at 10:22 am
I am a little behind on the podcasts but I just got to the part where Penny is talking about the books she has been reading. All great books! One of my favorites from last year is “The Book Thief” by Markus Zusak and another to look for in September is “The Hunger Games” by Suzanne Collins.