Episode #79: Harry Potter and Gödel’s Theorem
This week, we finish up our Patterns in Potter discussion for Book 5, Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix. This time, we focus on Harry’s visions (courtesy of Lord Voldemort) and his driving urge to understand the truth of these visions, and what knowledge they can bring in aiding in the fight against evil. It’s quite an interesting discussion, and we end up talking about Gödel’s Theorem, for those of you who know what that is (for those of you who don’t, that’s why there is Wikipedia), and discuss rationalism, existenialism and religion.
Send us your thoughts, we look forward to hearing from you! You can leave comments here on the blog or send in your voicemails to 206-337-0357 in the US or 07092899490 in the UK. Please make sure to keep the message as close to one minute as possible and try to speak loudly and clearly.
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In the news:
- Vote for the Beedle The Bard winner.
- JK Rowling received Auther Of The Year Award. Again.
- Emma Watson made Maxim’s Hot 100 List. Penny came in right before her though.
- No Moaning Myrtle in Half Blood Prince. The actress who plays her is busy checking out nursing homes (oh snap, that was mean. I know. I apologize to Shirley Henderson, but come on- she is old.)
- JK Rowling to write a “Story Card” with other notable authors.
You can listen to the podcast with the player below, or download it directly as an mp3.
Tags: existenialism, Gödel's Theorem, Harry Potter, Order of the Phoenix, Patterns in Potter, philosophy, religion
May 16th, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Just curious, if truth is such an important theme in the 5th book, what are you going to come up with for the Patterns in Potter episode for the 7th book? Maybe a repeat theme, or is there something I’m overlooking? For me, truth is the major theme of the 7th book. Ron leaves because he doesn’t understand the truth of Harry’s sisterly feelings for Hermione, Voldemort screwed everything up because he only knew part some of the facts, some of the truths, about some of the things/beings (Elder Wand or Elves for instance) that lead to his demise, and Aberforth sums up the Albus Dumbledore quandary right before Neville comes to start the falling action of the book. There are a lot of other examples of course.
May 18th, 2008 at 6:59 am
Good question Brian. As we sort of touched upon in the episode, the themes of truth and knowledge are also somewhat related to the theme of trust. Trust is the bridge between the themes of Books 5, 6 and 7. Have faith, we’ll get there soon, and all will be made clear.
May 18th, 2008 at 7:46 am
Good episode. I think you should do an episode on just names (if you haven’t already). We all know that JKR picks out her names carefully and there is so much to discuss about the choices. What the meaning of each name can to to help guess the fate of that character or if anyone in the past who had the same name had any relation tot hat character. You could go through the names that appear in the book. I bet you could fill a whole episode on names. Just an idea. You do comment on some names as you go along but it be cool to have one episode on all the names.
May 18th, 2008 at 7:52 am
Laura- we did an episode on names in Deathly Hallows. We went through all of thew new characters introduced and discussed the significance of the names given to them.
May 18th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
it is not working on itunes
May 18th, 2008 at 3:18 pm
it will not download on itunes
May 18th, 2008 at 4:41 pm
Austin- I just downloaded it from iTunes and had no trouble with it. Maybe press subscribe again.
May 18th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
my computer hates me
May 18th, 2008 at 6:49 pm
Greg: I’ll have to listen to this episode again, I totally missed the part where you said that it’s a main theme for the last three books. Thanks for the heads up.
May 18th, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Brian: I didn’t. I said it’s a bridge. It’s not the main theme of 6 or 7.
May 18th, 2008 at 8:56 pm
It’s late, so I’m tired and I might have missed something, but when does trust come into book 6? Sorry if that’s a stupid question.
May 19th, 2008 at 4:05 am
Hi, I’m enjoying the discussion about truth and knowledge in Book 5! It got me to thinking about Book 6, and how Harry used the Half-Blood Prince’s notes in Potions class and passes it off as his own work–it’s knowledge that he hasn’t earned. It’s always bothered me that he basically got away with plagiarism and was never punished for it. He never even seems to feel very guilty about it.
I guess the Prince’s book also shows the danger of using knowledge without fully understanding it when Harry uses the Sectumsempra spell on Draco without knowing what it does, and nearly kills him.
May 19th, 2008 at 6:54 am
ok Rosie cast your Protego and read on….
I actually think that Trust is quite prevalent in book six from beginning to end.
It starts with Bellatrix not trusting Snape and him explaining why the Dark Lord does. We are then introduced for the first time to the “unbreakable vow” a tool used soley for the purpose of enabling trust.
The notion of a promise comes up again immediately as the main reason Dumbledore himself comes for Harry at the Dursleys is to make them promise that Harry will be allowed back one more time. Time and again Dumbledore affirms his complete trust in Severus Snape and later on we hear part of the scene where he is holding him to keep his word. Draco on the other hand has stopped trusting Snape.
Dumbledore is giving Harry confident information which he trusts him not to share with anyone besides those whom he is sure are his loyal friends. He explicitly gives Harry the feeling that he trusts him as they go Horcrux hunting and once again extracts a promise from Harry as they leave. Harry for his part shows his loyalty and worthiness of Dumbledores trust proclaiming himself Dumbledore’s man.
Even on a homorous note we are introduced to the amusing Rotfang conspiricy theory concerning those who dont trust the ministry.
to be continued … (maybe)…
May 19th, 2008 at 6:57 am
If I had to guess I would even go for loyalty as the HBP theme
May 19th, 2008 at 7:07 am
We’ve actually discussed the theme for Book 6 at great length already a while back. I’ll leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out where and when.
May 19th, 2008 at 9:13 am
Thanks Shimon! Now that I read your explanation, and am fully awake, that makes a lot of sense!
May 19th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Did we really discuss it already? Crap. I am going to have to figure this out or I’ll feel stupid in the next episode.
May 19th, 2008 at 2:15 pm
by the way I really liked the discussion on the Dept. of Mysteries and Godel’s theorem. I actually have some thoughts on book 5 and Game Theory i’ll see if I can distill them into a coherent mp3
also i was thinking that Harry’s visions even if implanted by Voldy also ironically turned out to actually be a (self fulfiling) prophesy
don’t know yet what you have in mind but i’m stikin with Loyalty as my book 6 theme. keep up the good work.
May 19th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
I don’t know about loyalty, I think it would be more trust, trusting that people are trying to help, and are telling you the truth.
May 20th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Rosie - you are right, point taken.
I was trying somehow to differentiate between the theme of 5 and 6.
I now think that they both are about Trust from two different vantage points.
While OoTP is about - knowing the truth and getting people to trust you,
HBP is about - achieving your goals by learning to trust others.
May 20th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
That sums it up perfectly.
I guess that you could even say that book seven is about learning to trust yourself, but I don’t think that that is the main theme, or even an important one.
May 21st, 2008 at 2:52 am
Very nice. I like that idea.
May 21st, 2008 at 4:17 pm
eh, i seemed to have missed that one. will go back. just a thought. who are all the philosophers that you keep mentioning. I have heard of plato obv but its confusing. i am rereading ootp even though i really didn’t like it and it is a lot better this timne than it was four years ago. Its slow but i thought it would be a lot worse. sorry i don’t say much, just don’t have that much to say.
Q- Does anyone have any odd revision techniques. Writing out and pictures don’t really work but I find I pick up song lyrics quitckly. Is there any way to use that. Got about 14 exams in a fort night
May 21st, 2008 at 4:45 pm
You could always write poems or lyrics with the important facts. Then sing them non stop. It might work!
May 21st, 2008 at 5:00 pm
At one point I made a truth table out of the Prophecy to prove that either Harry or Voldemort would die, possibly both, but not neither. It’s on the old blog.
May 21st, 2008 at 10:57 pm
laura: If you pick up song lyrics, Rosie’s idea is really good. You can also record your song/poem/chant/whatever and play it over for yourself for as long as you can stand it. I have an auditory memory as well, and I’ve found that that can work for me.
(I don’t have much to say about PiP… but my finals just ended, so the study tips are flowing! :-))
May 22nd, 2008 at 11:53 am
thanks, will try that.
greg- have you written your thank think to JKR yet? Just curious…
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:12 pm
Yeah Laura, That’s a good question! With the anniversary of Deathly Hallows coming around, we should do a one year anniversary thank you book!
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Yeah, Greg, have you?!?
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:44 pm
I haven’t gotten anything
If he gets it in before I finish putting it all together and in the mail, awesome. If not, not.
Incidentally, I was thinking that Greg could just record something briefly and email me the file. I’d pop it on a CD and just stick that in. I don’t know if Jo would bother to listen to it… but you never know.
May 22nd, 2008 at 4:48 pm
Greg and Penny should record something together, we wouldn’t love hp progs half as much if it was just one of them.
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:16 pm
maybe he could send a wizard rock single
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:32 pm
I second Rosie’s idea of a one year anniversary thank you book! Great idea.
…but I don’t think Greg’s W-rock single is such a great idea.
May 22nd, 2008 at 5:48 pm
No, as much as I liked my invisibility cloak, I don’t think that Jo would have a very good impression of Wrock if we sent her that.
In an anniversary book, we could talk about how we feel after a year of having Deathly Hallows.
May 23rd, 2008 at 11:19 am
what are the chords to my invisiblity cloak, its such a cool song!! have you attached an mp3 onto the site?
May 23rd, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Yeah, I would like to be able to download that song too!
June 8th, 2008 at 8:11 am
It’s the same as Big Rock Candy Mountain from the O’ Brother Where Art Thou soundtrack.