Episode #70 - Patterns in Potter: Identity Theft
In this week’s episode we continued our discussion on the theme of identity in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. We did a brilliant (in Greg’s opinion) deconstruction of some of the characters in the book: specifically the individuals who were attacked by the basilisk and the so to speak cosmic justice of why they were attacked and the karma involved in that. It was a really interesting discussion and we can’t wait to get your thoughts on it.We also had some AMAZING listener comments from Michelle and Michal. They were both very well thought out and very well presented. Here are some links we promised you during the show:
We really want to hear from you so please be in touch!! In the news:
- Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix nominated for a boatload of Saturn Awards.
- A scene that wasn’t in the book will be added to the Half Blood Prince Movie.
- It is looking like David Yates might direct Deathly Hallows.
- Dan Radcliffe won an award for taking it all off.
- Harry Potter, addictive? You tell me.
You can listen to the podcast with the player below, or download it directly as an mp3.
Tags: argus filch, Chamber of Secrets, colin creevy, heir of slytherin, Hermione Granger, justin finch-fletchly, mrs. norris, nearly-headless nick, penelope clearwater
February 25th, 2008 at 3:42 pm
Terrific episode, guys. I was a little wary about Greg’s Great Literary Criticism, but it definitely lived up to the hype– it’s a great way to look at the book. As for Hermione’s karmic-backlash, I’m not sure she had one. I think Penny is right, Hermione had to be a victim of the basilisk in order for the plot to move forward. Though I guess you could se it as a “lesson” for her to stop taking school so seriously, what with missing a quarter of the year and exams being canceled. (Can’t say she picks up on it too well, though.)
On the same note, while Justin Finch-Flechley is definitely guilty of exacerbating the Harry-as-Heir situation, I think it should be noted that he is generally viewed as a nice guy. I don’t so much think he was jealous of Harry as he is easily influenced by his pure-blood Huffelpuff friends. Justin strikes me as someone who wants and acts on the advice of those he feels is wiser than he is–note the super-prestigious choice of schools, even though he is probably far from brilliant. So thinking for himself takes second place to heated warnings from “wiser” sources, and Justin acted accordingly.
I was just a little bit surprised you guys didn’t mention Moaning Myrtle. I’ve never been a big fan of her myself, but I think she does fit into the theme nicely. When she was living, Myrtle was “objectified” and teased for superficial reasons– in a way, she never really became a person. And as much as she wails away in her stall, Myrtle does seem to take some obscene enjoyment from ghost-hood. Death has apparently allowed her personality, her true identity to emerge; right away, she *chooses* to return and haunt Olive Hornbey, she takes great pride in making her presence known exactly when and where people don’t want it, and her proudest memory seems to be of dying. Oddly enough, Myrtle doesn’t seem to be just an imprint of her living self, but an improvement and distillation of her whole identity.
Finally, you might enjoy this comic: http://xkcd.com/380/
February 25th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
in related point - I think that the Basilik’s method of killing also plays into the identity issue - it only kills if you look at it straight in the eye - flaunting your identity right in front of it
the spider colony is exactly the opposite representing a regime where essentially no one has their own individual identity. They are all subservient to their leader Aragog with no unique distinguishing features
the spider thing also must must be a reference to Charlotte’s Web which also touches upon the themes of fame and identity.
February 27th, 2008 at 3:01 am
ok heres a thought…
why has the discussion died down?
a) everyone is saving their comments to send in as mp3s when and if they ever get a chance…
b) everyone is stunned silly by Greg’s brilliance
c) everyone is waiting for Greg and Penny to comment more often
d) Aaron is on vacation
February 27th, 2008 at 7:20 am
Not on vacation but actually working too much as normal. I do like choices b and c. The amount of information and topics given in 45 minutes is very overwhelming and thought provoking.
My first thought is that Greg and Penny must have that word of the day toilet paper ( Like Joey in Friends had) Where each sheet has a new word and definition written on it. So in the spirit of using lesser used words lets say mine is Googol. That is the number 1 followed by 100 zeros or to put it in a more conceivable perspective, it is the number of times Greg was wrong in this episode.
I have listened to it twice now and haven’t quite been able to put the identity thing together in a way as to create a picture in my mind to the whole cosmic identity abuse = petrification thing. The more I think on the subject as open mindedly as I can, I get theme more focused on personalities than identities. They may be related but are very different. Two things made me think of this. One was the girls Mp3 comments and the other was mentioning Filch as being seemingly allied to slytherin even though it makes about as much sense as a Jewish nazi. In the case of Filch it is his peronality more than his identity that would in his mind ally himself closest to the slytherin philosophies. This serves to further show him as a not to bright wannabe.
To be fair I can see the connection Greg was making with the others and If I were to follow it through to Hermine would say she used Harry’s fame and friendship to further her own idenity as the prime proper brain that was smart enough and diciplined enough to be the case breaker. Getting credit for the solution while using Harry as the ground soldier to actually battle. She was ireturning from the library with info when she got zapped. I dunno but it is an attempt to make a connection.
Spiders are creepy predators that invoke fear and yet were shown fleeing and hiding to enhance the horribleness of the basilisk. This is getting long and I have pulled a muscle in my head so I will say goodnight. I would like to express how the houses of Hogwarts may be sorted more from personality than identiy and how that is an ongoing theme in the series.
Googol, that is a lot of times to be wrong. Geeze
February 27th, 2008 at 7:56 am
i’m not quite sure that your take contradics what Greg was saying
maybe i need to think about it some more…
in the meantime here is a great link for all Star Wars IV fans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBM854BTGL0
February 27th, 2008 at 1:56 pm
Yeah actually I was trying to follow his pattern. I may not have been awake enough to pull it off. It is difficult to respond to what he is saying without writing an essay. I will say that I am not so harsh on the new Star Wars movies. There is a contradiction. I can take those at face value where I am not as tolerant of the additions and changes to the original movies. I thought it was lousy that the original spirit Anakin was replaced with the younger version at the end of return of the Jedi. for instance. I think your comment on how the basilisk kills is good. It is very Gorgan-like where the snake haired Medusa killed the same way but could also kill in other ways, Venom extc. Both killed by the hero’s special sword and it’s cool Jar Jar has a 4 foot long tongue. The Gene Simmons of the prequils. Ok I’m gonna nap some as I am rambleing.
February 27th, 2008 at 4:07 pm
I am here and accounted for.
Michal- I can not believe we didn’t discuss Myrtle. I agree with you 100% on all your points. Excellent thought.
Shimon- first of all, I am embarrassed to say that I have NEVER read Charlotte’s Web. Is that horrible? I know we own it so perhaps that will be my reading this week in lieu of my weekly Lord of the Rings (you know when I go through it TWICE and go through the commentaries ONCE). But I definitely hear your points on the spiders representing a community where individuality is squelched. Almost like Death Eaters/Pure Bloods.
Aaron- I don’t think that identity and personality aren’t synonymous with each other. I think personality makes up a very good portion of one’s identity. As far as not seeing the cosmic justice thing- I don’t think you have to look at it as a literal correlation, but rather as a literary correlation. IF that makes any sense. And by the way, on my new computer, I set my screen saver to the word of the day feature.
February 27th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
b) everyone is stunned silly by Greg’s brilliance
February 27th, 2008 at 4:26 pm
b
everyone is stunned silly by Greg’s brilliance
February 27th, 2008 at 4:38 pm
e) Right in the heart of Lent is the reason I haven’t been commenting as much either here or on SOG.
Greg’s Great Literary Criticism was wonderful to listen to. I’m not sure I agree with everything but he does try to connect all these things to events in the book. Indeed, it’s on this point that I think he misses it regarding Justin. It was Ernie MacMillan who kept pushing Harry as Heir of Slytherin because he could speak Parseltongue. Justin had no problems with Harry until the snake thing. Plus, his misfortune to be attacked by the Basilisk could just be deus ex machina on Jo’s part. She needed a Hufflepuff to be attacked just like she needed a Gryffindor & Ravenclaw to be attacked. Probably not the case, but it’s possible.
Great job, Greg! Very good analysis.
February 27th, 2008 at 5:55 pm
I should never comment before I nap and have some coffee. I should have said that I had trouble connecting Greg’s analogy with all the victims of the Toad -chicken snake thingie. I was attempting to connect Hermine’s identity as a know it all to make her fit into the cosmic thing. Her attack even happened on the way from the library where her research had given yet another piece to the puzzle. I was under the impression that the basilisk attacks were directed at mud-bloods with the exceptions being regarded as collateral damage. As far as I know the only real death this beast caused was Moaning Mrytle. Perhaps it failed to kill because of Ginny’s resistance to being controlled as she was the one being used to guide it. While Greg makes a good literary correlation, I wonder if it was intentional or just coincidence since Harry was the prime suspect in the attacks. That had to be an added bonus.
February 27th, 2008 at 7:23 pm
I don’t think this question was ever adequately answered in the books. Did the basilisk affect purebloods. If it didn’t, then Ginny would’ve been immune.
February 27th, 2008 at 7:40 pm
Well I know when Harry and Ron went into the chamber of secrets they were worried about looking it in the eye until Faux blinded it. I always assumed it’s gaze was lethal to all. Was Sir Nick the ghost a pure blood? I thought so and though he was dead and could not be killed he was petrified. That is another subject all together though.
February 27th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
I think it is implied that the basilisk death-glare effects anyone who sees it, regardless of their lineage. (If it didn’t, that would actually be a not-insignificant argument for the pure-blood supreamists; “magical selection”?) My thought on why Riddle and Ginny were never harmed was just that the basilisk didn’t look at them. They are already controlling the thing, why not to that extent?
In terms of Nick, my question has always been more on the revival front. How do you feed medicine to a translucent being?
February 27th, 2008 at 8:28 pm
Was he stone like with form in the petrified state maybe? I see your point though why would a dead ghost even need medicine? Could be part of an aguement that in order to stay back as a ghost perhaps a part of living humanity remains in the soul. Wow crazy subject. Kinda like the imprint on the diary you spoke of.
Now that I think of it we haven’t tied Snape into book 2 at all. Where is Miss Andy?
February 27th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
hey guys,
this is unrelated but i was reading “Tribute to Freud” by Hilda Doolittle (HD) and she mentioned “Sturm und Drang” and being an HP fan I immediately connected it to Durmstrang. Literally, the phrase means “Storm and Stress” and it was a German literary and artistic movement emphasizing free expression. I guess the literal translation of “storm” sort of fits Durmstrang because they arrived in the ship and the location of their school is presumably in cold weather.
You guys like wikipedia and they have an entry for “Sturm und Drang” so you can check it out.
Maybe this is a sign of an HP addiction- relating everything you can to HP.
Anyway, this was interesting and I thought you guys could appreciate it.
February 27th, 2008 at 11:58 pm
I have a really good comment but I was wondering if I could use the other books but base it mostly on the 1st and 2nd.
February 28th, 2008 at 10:17 am
I would not mind hearing it Sara you got me curious. To make a comment on this episode, did anyone else hear Greg state that he was an expert in all fields? I thought I heard him say it twice. Perhaps we should refer to him as The Great King Under the Mountain from now on.
February 28th, 2008 at 10:50 am
Sara: all comments are welcome!
Thanks everyone for the comments and critiques; I’m not 100% convinced of my theory, but I do think it’s at least compelling, certainly it has some holes though.
February 28th, 2008 at 3:58 pm
I hope this wasn’t mentioned above, i perused the comments above and nothing caught my eye. If i were to guess as to why Hermione was chosen “Cosmically” to be petrified by the basilisk i think it would be more so due to the fact that Hermione stole the ingredients from Snape’s office rather then actually making the potion. The fact that she partially turned into a cat, one could say, was because she decided on using an illegal potion. Even though the two incidences are related, i think that the potion backfiring (in a sense) was more of a seperate “contrapassian” punishment, whereas her petrification was due to the theft.
Also, in reference to Nearly Headless Nick, i could be wrong but wasn’t he petrified because the basilisks gaze was reflected from Hermiones mirror? It was either that or his translucent self floated betwixt the basilisk and Hermione. My memory is foggy…
February 28th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
I thought Nick was hit head on. He couldn’t die because he was already dead. The Pansy girl was hit looking at the eyes through his translucent body and not directly or something like that. Hermine was using a Mirror and Then a camera view then the reflection from the water on the wet floor. I’m fairly certain that the only direct hits were Nick and Myrtle.
February 28th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
Nick and Justin were hit together, but you’re right that he and Myrtle were the only head-on hits. The other double attack was Hermione and Penelope Clearwater, and that ended up being the last one, if I’m remember correctly.
March 2nd, 2008 at 12:30 am
Michal, that’s right - Hermione and Penelope were both looking at the basilisk through the mirror, and they were the last attack.
The Nick thing is weird. I get that he didn’t die and was only petrified because he was already dead, but still…it’s odd that he would be petrified, and even odder that mandrake draught would cure him. But the whole basilisk thing has always been a bit odd to me - if the thing was “so hungry for so long” and kept saying it wanted to “rip” and “tear” everyone, why did it slither away as soon as it petrified someone? Why not, you know, go ahead and rip and tear? Unless that’s meant to be figurative, which some of my SoG commenters said when I suggested that little problem.
Thanks everyone for the comments and critiques; I’m not 100% convinced of my theory, but I do think it’s at least compelling, certainly it has some holes though.
Greg, mind if I poke the holes a little bit? There are definitely some compelling aspects to the theory, and I applaud this kind of thinking about the books. There’s still so much to uncover! I think this Patterns in Potter series has been tremendous and has contributed to that uncovering (episode #69 has been my favorite so far).
Here is the biggest issue I have with this episode’s theory: as others have mentioned, the basilisk was sent to attack muggle-borns, which means the entire basilisk plot is part of the commentary on racism. The petrified students are supposed to be portrayed as victims, not as people facing karma. It seems to me that it undermines the anti-racism message to make the victims in some sense deserving, in some cosmic way, a bit of correcting retribution for their identity mistakes. I think for the overarching moral of confronting racism and prejudice, it’s best to see the victims as such through no fault of their own. This even fits Mrs. Norris, who represents Filch, because my view on Filch is that he was bullied, picked on, ridiculed, and ostracized as a kid for being a squib, and is another example of the tremendous compassion of Dumbledore for outcasts. This is obviously an overarching theme to the series (Rowling calls it “a prolonged argument for tolerance”), but she hits on it pretty hard in Chamber in particular, which is really where she introduces the concept (I’m doing a pubcast episode on Chamber in a week or two, and I’ll be focusing on bullying).
March 2nd, 2008 at 3:11 am
i think we need to get greg some decongestant for the next episode. his breathing was distracting me. i cant even think about patterns in potter right now.
March 3rd, 2008 at 10:57 am
Travis wrote:
“But the whole basilisk thing has always been a bit odd to me - if the thing was “so hungry for so long” and kept saying it wanted to “rip” and “tear” everyone, why did it slither away as soon as it petrified someone? Why not, you know, go ahead and rip and tear? Unless that’s meant to be figurative, which some of my SoG commenters said when I suggested that little problem.”
I had always just thought that after the victim was petrified, it was too hard for the basilisk to eat. Which would kind of suck for the monster. But wasn’t petrification the result of not directly seeing the monster’s gaze but just a reflection? Otherwise, the gaze killed if seen head on like Myrtle. Wouldn’t then the basilisk have eaten Myrtle’s body? Which is what snakes do. They don’t rip or tear. They either constrict their prey & then eat it whole or paralyze it with venom & then eat it whole.
As for why the basilisk’s gaze never petrified or killed Ginny, maybe since she was being possessed by Voldemort she had an immunity to the monster’s power. Maybe it couldn’t affect the Heir of Slytherin?
Of course, I’m not sure this has any relevance to the topic at hand, but I’m bored & Travis’ comment struck some thoughts in my head.
March 3rd, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Hmm… interesting. I had always seen the utterances of the Basilisk - ‘rip’, ‘tear’, ‘kill’ and such - as just repeats of the order that was given to the Basilisk by the Heir or the one acting on the heir’s behalf (Ginny). I never really saw the Basilisk as having a will of its own, because if it did, why would it then stay in the Chamber hungry, deserted and alone for 50 years ? Why wouldn’t it just leave and go live wherever it is that Basilisks live naturally ??
And this ties into why Riddle and Ginny were never in danger of petrification or death. They just ordered the Basilisk never to gaze upon them or in their direction.
March 7th, 2008 at 1:59 pm
Was just listening to Travis Prinzi’s podcast, and realized what Hermione did wrong: she was obsessed with Gilderoy Lockhart.
Ok, no one is going to read this, so I’ll just talk about it in the next episode.
March 7th, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Greg, I had the same exact thought.
March 7th, 2008 at 4:32 pm
Of course we are going to read this ! That’s what comment RSS is for