Episode #57: Fatherhood in Potter
Last week we discussed love, and focused on the distinctly maternal focus taken by J.K. Rowling. This week, we examine the father figures in Harry’s life. From his actual, albeit ephermeral father James, to surrogates in Lupin, Sirius and even, to some extent Snape, we take a look at Harry’s bevy or male role models, how they shaped his character and how they contributed to his being what appears to be, for all that we can tell, a good father to his children as well.
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There’s news this week, but we’re on the road, so we can’t provide links. Suffice it to say, Penny, at least, will be traveling to New York when Equus comes to town.
You can listen to the podcast using the player below, or download it directly as an mp3.
Tags: arthur weasley, dumbledore, fatherhood, Harry Potter, James Potter, lupin, snape
November 9th, 2007 at 2:37 pm
Hey Guys I really enjoyed this episode especially since it tied quite nicely into a book I am reading called “Raising Boys” by Steve Biddulph. It talks about how important Male role models are to boys once they hit 11 and how a ‘father’ suddenly becomes the person that a boy looks to rather than their mother.
I think it is great that JK showed how important these male role models were to Harry and I agree that DD was more of a grandfather to him that a ‘father figure’. I saw Lupin as more of a mentor, the book I am reading talks about how a lot of single parent families lack this role model type figure as the father is around so little or not at all and how teachers tend to fill this gap for the teenager.
I laughed when Greg mentioned Snape where would an episode be without my Snape, he didn’t have a father figure and I think he substituted his with Voldy and the death eaters.
What I do think is interesting is that Neville had no male figure in his life, and he seemed to turn to Harry for guidance and strength but again he also liked Lupin.
November 9th, 2007 at 11:07 pm
What I think is interesting is this: My brothers look up to my mother more than they do our father, and I look to both of them equally. I suppose it depends on the personality of the father or the mother that drives the child to him or her in some way. I don’t know, it’s just my personal experience.
November 10th, 2007 at 1:09 am
I thought this was a great episode. It was really thought-provoking and well presented. Personally I had thought about role models for Harry but I hadn’t considered these role models through the lens of “father figure.” One word association that kept coming up in my mind as I was listening to this podcast was the connection of father to The Father (aka God). I know this wasn’t the focus of this week’s topic, but it was curious to me. Penny mentioned that Dumbledore was more of a grandfather type figure, but I wonder if he’s more than that…he was kind of controlling and manipulative, yet a distanct and benevolent character who tried to teach Harry and let him choose his path. And don’t forget that Dumbledore has long flowing white hair…Dumbledore was the ultimate Father…and yet not really fatherly at all.
November 10th, 2007 at 11:36 am
This week’s topic was very interesting. I enjoyed it and I agree with you on most things.
However, I can’t share your opinion of Snape as the ‘bad father figure’ at all. To me that is Vernon. He was (maybe not just) emotionally abusing Harry (and one can say so did Snape but we’ve only seen Snape though Harry’s pov and honestly Harry didn’t give Snape much reason to like him either..). Besides whereas I see Vernon as not caring about Harry at all, Snape had to care about Harry for the sake of getting rid off Voldemort. Also Snape tried to teach Harry things he may have needed to defeat Voldemort (like occlumency) which, even though he wasn’t very successful at it, is one aspect of a good father to me.
Penny’s mentioned that she’s surprised that Harry turned out normal with the amount of emotional abuse he had to endure from Snape’s part. Imo having spent a childhood in a cupboard, neglected by your own family and then having the pressure of repeatedly having to defeat the Dark Lord from the age 11 are rather reasons that might have made Harry turn out ‘not normal’.
btw: I liked your suggestion for the Top 5
November 11th, 2007 at 4:07 am
I don’t know how you do it but week after week you succeed in producing one quality episode after another.
As Greg on the topic I think that in real life too most of us approach fatherhood unprepared….
If I have more time later I may elaborate on why I think Arthur Weasley is actually a very very good role model.
I also think that Hagrid deserves a mention although he may not be a typical “father” model.
November 11th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
I was just coming here to comment on Hagrid’s absence from your list of father figures and someone beat me to it! Thanks Shimon for mentioning Hagrid as a paternal figure because I think it is one of, if not THE, most important father roles in the book.
If you think of one of the roles of a father, especially in terms of the literary imagery, as shepherding and guiding children through life transitions then Hagrid is major. He moves Harry out of the Wizarding world as a baby, moves him back into it at 11 and in DH moves him completely out of the muggle world on the same bike. On that ride away from Number 4 , when Lily’s charm is broken, Hagrid is literally carrying Harry into adulthood. And he will eventually carry Harry on his greatest transition, back from the dead.
I would also argue that in the first two books, before Sirius and Lupin start to take the mentioning roles and before Harry is such a strong part of the Weasly family, Hagrid IS Harry’s father figure, at least at Hogwarts, the one who advises, supports and guides Harry through the day to day childhood stuff. You see Harry going to Hagrid with all the kid stuff he would take to a parent…..think “Dad,that Malfoy kid is bugging me again, Dad, that one teacher hates me, Dad nobody likes me” How could y’all leave out Daddy Hagrid!!! I think one of the most “fatherly’ scenes in all the books is in Prisoner when Hagrid talks to Ron and Harry about friends and rats and broomsticks. Hagrid is being a great dad there! He didn’t nag all afternoon—anyone who had parented a thirteen year old knows how futile nagging is—you say it, you drop it and you hope they get it. Hagrid did it exactly right.
I know Hagrid’s importance appears to fade as the books progress but I think it is because he is the emotional father and as Harry grows he, like most adolescents, distances himself from his emotional parents—Hagrid and Molly (remember Molly and the supper scene in Order).With the exception of Arthur, Hagrid is the only father figure who never lets Harry down or disappoints him. And I’m pretty sure once he is grown, Harry gets what an important emotional support Hagrid was—he shows his understanding of the value of Hagrid’s guidance when he sends his son Albus off to school with a reminder hat he is going to see Hagrid for tea.
November 11th, 2007 at 8:34 pm
I am so glad you all brought up Hagrid. I am not allowed to mention him but he was probably the closest thing to family Harry had thru out all the storys. Hi Penny….. Hagrid rules!!!!
November 11th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
I should not have told ye that……..
November 12th, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Ok I am so sure that the reason Hagrid was not mentioned in this episode is simply because they could not do him justice with a 1 hour podcast. Surely Greg and Penny are devoting and entire month of episodes to this complex character. I have noticed that He has not been included in such poles as the most memorable character and tear jerking moment. Hagrid has been with us from Harry’s 1st day at Hogwarts to witnessing his self sacrifice and carring him back when he was feigning death. Also where is Gilderoy Lockheart? Very fatherly fellow. Anyways I am looking forward to listening to the Hagrid files in future episodes.
November 12th, 2007 at 8:18 pm
I really loved this episode. Even though it is so blatantly obvious through the novels, I would never have thought of the whole brotherly love connection. This is why I listen to your podcast. You guys take the plot and the basic symbols and synthesize them in new ways that really challenge the mind. Did either of you ever think about teaching English?
And, by the way, I bought the Doe “Always” shirt from Zazzle in the dark forest green color or whatever it’s called.
November 12th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
So far so good on the comments front, everyone. Well said.
Claudia- I agree with you. I think Vernon Dursley was the number 1 negative father figure in Harry’s life. I don’t even look at Snape as a father figure- Greg made me discuss him
Re: the Hagrid folks. You knew I wouldn’t consider Hagrid to be a father figure in Harry’s life. Time and again I have expounded on my dislike of Hagrid’s character (I will not be apologetic about this either). I agree that he was definitely a positive influence on Harry’s life but I can’t go so far as to say that he was a father type figure. I look at Hagrid more as a goofy older brother or cousin type. (ok, maybe now the comments will start rolling in…)
Brian- I can’t speak for Greg but I’d suck at teaching. Also, my grammer is horrible so there goes the English idea. Also, thanks for letting us know you bought the Always shirt. Like I have told a bunch of folks, we just get notifications that they were bought and not actual information on the buyers so we like to know who bought them. Thanks so much for buyin git- please send us a picture when you get it!!
November 12th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
I was SO glad to see the title of the podcast and very much enjoyed your candid discussion as usual. Thanks for the mention, btw
As much as I do like Hagrid, I think of Hagrid more as a brother to Harry… he showed him around Diagon Alley, introduced him to the wizarding world, and tried to look out for him at Hogwarts like a brother would. I was a bit surprised that you felt that Dumbledore didn’t qualify as a father figure to Harry, though. One particular thing that comes to mind to bolster my argument occurs in DH: Harry is discussing one of the Rita Skeeter articles and makes mention of the fact that all of the discussions he had with Dumbledore revolved around Harry, and that Harry never bothered to find out more about Dumbledore’s past. Because Harry never had a normal parental relationship with anyone, and he is emotionally immature in that regard, he is very much like a young child who would also not think to question a parent about their past. It is taken for granted by the child that the parent will guide them and teach them what they are supposed to do, and Dumbledore very much fills this role for Harry, at least in HBP. I would agree that earlier on in the story, Dumbledore is more like a grandfatherly type toward Harry, but as the story goes on Dumbledore takes on a more important role. This is also evidenced by the explosive outburst that Harry has toward Dumbledore at the end of OoTP; although Dumbledore validates Harry’s feelings and points out that Harry is justified in feeling the way he does, he also assumes the role of a parent who has disappointed their child in a very significant way.
I happen to love Snape’s character and while I disagree with Claudia that he was a father figure, she brings up a very compelling point–Snape taught Harry a lot of things about dealing with negative forces, and even though he did it in a nasty way, Harry learns best by dealing with hardship firsthand. Snape had his place in Harry’s life, but simply as an example of how not to let bitterness or obsessive love rule your emotions. He certainly didn’t love him or even like him!
I could go on, but I won’t ;-), just wanted to throw my 2 cents in and commend you for another excellent podcast, and I will keep listening as long as you are discussing!
November 12th, 2007 at 11:11 pm
Even if you don’t care for Hagrid as a character I don’t see how you can deny that he is a father figure. More than anyone he plays that role–If Harry HAS a father it is Hagrid. He may be “goofy” but he is the primary source of adult emotional support, epically in the first three books. I don’t think it’s fair to ignore the obvious because you don’t like how the character is written. I’m not real crazy about Sirius or Lupin either but they clearly have a paternal component although I think an argument could be made that as father figures actually Sirius and Lupin both are aspects of James (or rather Harry’s fantasy of James) and in combination the three make the ultimate ideal albeit unreal father. (you can carry that a bit farther in that Snape, in Harry’s is the Anti of this ideal triad—but in the end that perception is proven as wrong as the vision of the Sirius/Lupin/James Perfect dad) Hagrid’s presence is much more grounded and because he may be a bit flawed much more true to life than the removed and remote fathering of the Sirius/Lupin/James triad. Hagrid and Molly ARE Harry’s emotional parents. Arthur is a father to his own kids and in seeing him parent them Harry may get some reflection of fatherhood but he is not an active father to Harry. Arthur is what he seems to be, your best friend’s Dad, influential but not your dad. I believe Dumbledore is a mentor not a father—he too is what he appears, the Wise Old Wizard.
Penny I would be REAL interested in you showing how either Sirius, Lupin or James —-or any combination of the three provided the same level of day to day emotional support and guidance Hagrid did. Sweeping in with advice from time to time, looking cool and not thinking things through is what they did. THAT is a goofy older brother or cousin. Being there every day to support and love unconditionally even if you look goofy.That is what a Dad does. I’ll even make it easier…use all seven boks for the triad and match it to Hagrid in the first three. That leaves out his caring Harry into adulthood and his carrying Harry back from death.
November 13th, 2007 at 12:53 am
I don’t think providing day to day emotional support makes someone a father figure. I agree that Hagrid was there for Harry from the very beginning when he brought Harry to his aunt’s to the (seemingly) very end when he carried Harry’s “dead” body. But Hagrid was never mature enough to be a father figure to Harry. I don’t think Harry saw Hagrid as a father figure either and that’s why interpreting this is sort of blurry. I think he barely saw Hagrid as a teacher compared to, say, McGonagall. That isn’t to say he didn’t respect Hagrid, but there was no sense of obedience to authority there. It’s hard to say he’s a father or older brother or anything because he’s just Hagrid, and I don’t think that lack of a label undermines Harry and Hagrid’s relationship.
November 13th, 2007 at 3:32 am
I think that Hagrid’s main liability is that he is all heart (Gryffindor) and not very strong on the intelectual (Ravenclaw) side. This prevents Harry from being able to “look up” to him or to seek his advice on important matters.
While this does seriously impede his fatherly qualities I think it is impossible to deny his being role model as a father - especially when we see how he literally raises his brother Grawp caring for him as only a mother could.
November 13th, 2007 at 7:26 am
“I don’t think providing day to day emotional support makes someone a father figure.”
Good gosh, if providing day to day emotional support and guidance is being a dad what is?????
I see your point about Hagrid being, as others have said “goofy”, but I don’t think that means he is not mature. How is he less mature than, say Arthur Weasly? Or Sirius Black? Hagrid is kinda funny and befuddled but Sirius is just downright irresponsible. The point about Grawp is well made, Hagrid takes on a huge responsibility with his brother and parents what is arguably the most difficult “child” to a pretty good guy as an “adult”. And does that in what—a couple of years? years while holding down his TWO jobs, AND serving in the order and manages it all as a single parent.
Let’s se in two years SIrius managed to….er…well he was kinda on the run so up until he died… lets do Lupin instead, I mean as a role model he he had that job as a…well he got married and had a kid…oh yeah, HARRY had to tell HIM he was suppose to parent it…Well there was James…but he was kinda…well ah dead.
Face it folks you can twist and turn it any way you want but the best DAD Harry ever had was Hagrid.
November 13th, 2007 at 8:58 am
Neville Girl- I hear your point about Dumbledore and I agree with you on everything you said; however I still see him as more of a grandfather. More like the grandfather who has been forced into the life of a grandchild when the child’s parents couldn’t take care of him anymore. I am arguing on semantics here though.
Bill- yes it would be ideal if every parent gave emotional day to day support but not all dads do give that day to day emotional support and conversely, not all people who give day to day emotional support are considered father figures.
I think Lalala put it very well when she said that Hagrid wasn’t mature enought to be a father figure FOR HARRY. Not to say that he wasn’t a father figure for grawp or norbert, but Harry definitely didn’t see him as a father figure (and I liked Lalala’s point about Harry not taking him too seriously as a teacher either). I think Hagrid was the first person to ever show Harry love in his life (that he could remember) and I don’t downplay that relationship but I think because Harry doesn’t look at Hagrid as a father figure, Hagrid wasn’t one.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:47 am
If yur askin me the world ‘ud be a helluva lot better off, if dem fathers were givvin more of that there emotional supportin stuff even if their kids werent thinkin of ‘em as the brightest wizards of thier time.
November 13th, 2007 at 9:59 am
Yeah Penny but HARRY doesn’t look at anyone but James as his father. Even Sirius he sees as a GODfather, not a father. So if you limit it to just who Harry identified as a father you are kinda stuck with….well…James.
Your discussion was on father figures not who Harry saw as a father. By nature leads to a more literary examination of father symbolism in the books which is what you were doing and I don’t see how, like him or not you can have that discussion without Hagrid. Calling him a big brother or cousin is just semantics. Basically you said it:
“You knew I wouldn’t consider Hagrid to be a father figure in Harry’s life. Time and again I have expounded on my dislike of Hagrid’s character (I will not be apologetic about this either). I agree that he was definitely a positive influence on Harry’s life but I can’t go so far as to say that he was a father type figure.”
It’s impossible to counter that with ay kind of real argument. So I’ll just say again, because you don’t like a character does not change the character’s role in the book.
Mostly I’m giving you a hard time but I would like you to explain, beyond the fact that you don’t like him, how Hagrid is less of a father image in the books than is Lupin or Sirius or any of the other men you mentioned. If you are not defining father figure as someone who give guidance and emotional support and you are only picking people you like and only people who Harry sees in the role and……nobody can ever counter your point of view.
Just to give you a bit more of a hard time, what you are doing here is pretty much what you were complaining about the Mugglecast doing around the Gay Dumbledore thing, “showing their age” by reacting emotionally, not considering the literary context, writing their won rules….
You just need to admit that Hagrid is a father figure even if you don’t like him!
November 13th, 2007 at 10:11 am
Bill- to give you a hard time, even though my original comment may look like I feel this way (wow, it is hard to win an argument when my words come back to bite me) like I don’t consider Hagrid a father figure BECAUSE of my dislike for the character, it was more of an unconnected statement on my part.
So let me explain this again.
1. I don’t like the character of Hagrid. He has annoyed me throughout the book (once again, I am sorry to all of you Hagrid lovers- but this is my opinion).
2. I think Hagrid is a loving and caring individual who has had a positive impact on Harry’s life. I feel this way, even though I don’t particularly like Hagrid’s character.
3. I think JKR did a wonderful job showing Hagrids and Harry’s relationship from Hagrid being the first wizard who Harry ever met to Hagrid ultimately carrying Harry’s “dead” body back to the castle.
4. When I compiled the list of father figures in Harry’s life, I compiled them based on who I thought Harry considered as father figures. It should be noted that I didn’t consider all of these people positive father figures in Harry’s life (and I included Sirius in the “not such a positive influence” category). Perhaps Hagrid was someone who Harry learned from and who was a very special friend to Harry; however, once again- I don’t think Harry perceived him as a father figure.
5. Lest you think I am completely stubborn about my opinions (and Greg can attest that I usually am pretty stubborn so I apologize), based on everything I have said about Hagrid, I am now re-thinking my exclusion of Dumbledore from the list. Perhaps he was more of a father figure than I gave him credit for.
p.s. do you think I am showing my age with my arguments? If so, Finally, I don’t feel old!!
November 13th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
There is no thinking about your stubborness Penny. A docile complient Penny would be like Voldemort with a sun tan,
But you know I agree with Bill and judging by the saddest moment in Potter pole I think Dobby should have been added as well. Now I know better than to challenge your disdain for Hagrid’s character albeit misguided that is how you feel. The irrationality of it seems to make me think that there may be some hidden deeper more sinister subconcious reason behind it though. Perhaps a deeply rooted fear of facial hair? But hey who am I to claim what’s “normal” I am trying to picture Hillary Clinton in that Princess Liea slave girl outfit. 
November 13th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
” There’s no Hogwarts without you Hagrid!” very good tear jerking moment
November 13th, 2007 at 12:24 pm
ATTN!!!! PSA!!!
CAMERON DANCED LAST NIGHT TO THE THEME FROM HARRY POTTER!!!!!!
MUCH SEXIER THAN HARRYS DANCING HE DID WITH CHO THE HO…
WOOHOO DANCING WITH THE STARS RULZ YALL… DON’T NEED STUPID WRITERS ON THERE ON STRIKE TO CAUSE DISTRUBION EITHER!!
GO CAM!!!
END OF PSA
PS…. HAGRIDS IN A SLAVE GIRL OUTFIT???
November 13th, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Ok I’m just in a posting mood. Let us wander into a scene that was left to our imaginations. When Harry and Ginny are married I am imagining a scene very close to Bill and Fleurs but with a much larger crowd as the times are better. I would sure like to read about some of those scenes. Ron and Hermine had to have some really good arguements and I would think Ron’s ability to twist her thoughts to get a kiss would be a best seller. But I digress from my point which is after the Weaslys who would be the 1st person to get invited to these shindigs. Why yes Hagrid the father figure.
November 13th, 2007 at 12:28 pm
Gosh Snapes widow youreally need to learn how to use those bifocals.
November 13th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
I cannot help that I am excited……………
even Tarters yelled about Harry Potter during it …
MORE CHEST@!!
November 13th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
I think the Hagrid issue is also mostly semantics.
If the definition is people that Harry sees as father figures than you may not have to include him but then again you might as well chuck out Snape and a few others also.
If the definition is “…we take a look at Harry’s bevy or male role models, how they shaped his character and how they contributed to his being what appears to be, for all that we can tell, a good father to his children as well…” than Hagrid certainly makes the cut. no question.
November 13th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Can i just wade on in here? I agree with Penny as I just can’t see Hagrid in the role of ‘father figure’ his role to me was as more of a friend when he felt like an outcast. I sometimes felt throughout the book that Harry actually ‘used’ Hagrid in some instances because if he had a choice he would’ve turned to Sirius, Lupin or even DD first.
To me Harry really only had three father figures, James, Sirius and Arthur, Lupin was a mentor but in the end Harry outgrew him by reversing their roles and having to berate and even disipline him for his behaviour.
Hagrid to me equals Harry’s relationship to Tonks, not a parental figure but a very good friend.
As with DD I am starting to think that maybe a surrogate Grandfather is just as good as a Father even if he turns out to be a manipulative so and so.
November 13th, 2007 at 2:11 pm
Penny,
I’ve said it before, I am the old guy. Pretty much anybody who has a podcast —especially a Harry Potter podcast — is probably young enough to be my kid (or grandkid)
So I have NEVER considered you old just maybe oldER!
I can live with all your latest statements. They you get to a real point that we cal try and ponder out: who did Harry HIMSELF see as a father figure? I think Harry was a pretty basic kid on that level, in his eyes people were who they were. Like I said before I think he saw James as his father. Sirius was his godfather and his Dad’s friend as Lupin was his dad’s friend. (Again I think symbolically Sirius and Lupin act as aspects of James and together the three create a perfect father image for Harry and his learning that all the aspects of that perfect father triad are flawed is part of his own coming of age). Arthur was his buddy’s dad. Hagrid was his teacher and friend.
Dumbledore,is also what he is in Harry’s eyes. A mentor, a teacher and more—The Headmaster. While I think Harry came to deeply love and respect him I don’t see evidence that, from a plot perspective, Harry saw him as a father figure. Rather I think the is evidence is that, from a literary framework Dumbledore was a symbolic father. I would agree with whoever it was that suggested that in many ways Dumbledore is actually symbolically THE Father—-God.
Moving to something completely different, I am wondering what people her make of the whole Lexicin lawsuit thing.
November 13th, 2007 at 2:22 pm
How old are you Bill? The Lexicon thing is kinda sad for me. I mean if it is just a paper version of his website I don’t get the issue. Must be more too it. She let Mugglecast get away with a book that was much closer to an infringment in my opinion. The lexicon is pretty much an idividual creation and work. I dunno. Shimon is exactly right. Who took Harry shopping for school stuff. Who was loyal to Harry always with an unconditional love of a parent? It was Hagrid. Mizz Andy me thinks you are just trying to keep us from ganging up on Penny LOL. You know Hagrid rulz!
November 13th, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Aaron - I don’t always agree with Penny but yes this might be a situation of girls against boys on this one. I don’t enjoy reading Hagrid and don’t get me started on Grawp!
Bill - I do enjoy reading your comments.
As for the lawsuit I feel really sorry for Steve Van der Ark he has put a lot of time and effort into the Lexicon and I can’t see why he can’t enjoy some pleasures out of it. From what I have read the book was to contain some of his ‘essays’ as well as the info from the Lexicon. I know JK is just trying to protect her rights but its not as though no one is going to buy her Encyclopedia when she does it just because the Lexicon have done one. Steve Van der Ark (that is going to get annoying typing out) can’t read and add all the bits that are inside JK’s head about the characters. And as Aaron said she let Mugglecast produce a book, what is so different this time?
November 13th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
The way I see it Jo’s got every right to halt the publication for no good reason if that’s what she sees fit. I don’t think it makes her look very good (Umbridgesque) and I don’t buy for a second that it will hurt her profits.
Personally if I were Steve i’d take down the website and then wait and see how in the world she’s gonna write her encyclopedia w/o an HP lexicon at her disposal…..
November 13th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
In the abscense of any other info that would seem to be the heart of it to me. That lexicon is so well done that perhaps she can’t compete with it. I don’t think it would have much to do with money as just having something written by JKR about Harry Potter is going to be bought. I think Greg made that point. We would still buy it regardless. Maybe there is just more to it we don’t know about. Anyways Mizz Andy pretend Hagrid is portrayed as Cameron Matherson. hen as wife says he can say anything he wants as long as there is a shirtless scene. this Hagrid fued has been ongoing for a while. Think it is easier to get peace in the middle east.
November 13th, 2007 at 4:49 pm
I do actually understand why the lexicon was singled out as in my personal library i’d put it on the canon shelf whereas all th other analysis books which i don’t have would not be attributed dsuch an honor.
November 13th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
Aaron I’m 52. My daughter is 23.
I have been interested in the way the whole Lexicon thing plays out. It seems that the issue is that it is a listing of people places and things and not an analysis therefore it more directly borrows from JKR’s actual work. And while it is being offered free on the web there isn’t an issue but the profiting seems to be the crux.
I have been following the reports on Leaky which seem to suggest the publisher is the real problem, some pretty unprofessional stuff like when JKR’s folks asked for a copy of the manuscript they told them to find someone to show them how to print the web page. I don’t really understand some of the stuff they seem to have done…almost like they want to provoke.
I really don’t feel strongly one way or the other beyond a gut feeling that it all really belongs to JKR so she has ultimate control. (and I do think Shimon that JKR can probably do any book she wants to wriute without the Lexicon as the whole Potterverse is her creation. If she forgets she can just make it up. What she says goes, ask Dumbledore! )
I have seen a couple of posts elsewhere that say this and I think it is true: one thing about JKR is she has always offered up her world and her characters to fans to play with. As a result the very fabric of the Internet sags in places under the shear weight of Potter Fan Fiction. (some with Hedwig and Fang doing stuff that I NEVER thought an owl and a dog could do!) Added to that is wizard rock, the podcasts the conventions and a world of Potter stuff. Fan fiction writers, wizard rockers and podcasters have celebrity in their own right and I think it all contributes to a blurring of ownership and entitlement and who controls what. Spiral it all back to the core and you find that everyone is still playing with JKR’s toys in her sandbox. I’ve seen other authors who are much more controlling of their worlds—Anne Mccaffery and Pern, Jan Karon and Mitford both come to mind—and have wondered if at some time the free access JKR has given fans (which I think is great, don’ t get me wrong) was going to become a problem. This may be that time.
November 13th, 2007 at 7:18 pm
As I said before I agree that it is JKR’s world to do as she pleases. I have no doubt she could write the encyclopedia w/o the lexicon making things up as she goes along but in the long run it would suffer if she wouldn’t take advantage of the wonderful resource provided by the lexicon through endless hours of nitty gritty passionate ironing out of all the small little details which JKR would not notice precicely because of her first hand farmiliarity with her characters. The result would be a lesser quality contradiction filled book which i would run to buy anyways.
Ultimately I think JKR’s free for all policy only contributed to the stature of both her books and the fandom and did not usurp her toal control of the series. She skillfuly took advantage of the unique opportunity provided by the internet explosion to create a Potterverse phenomena of unprecednted porportions.
November 14th, 2007 at 12:10 am
I actually like Hagrid’s character. He’s very comforting. But I never really saw Harry looking up to Hagrid as a role model like he did with James, Lupin, Sirius, and even Arthur and Dumbledore. I wouldn’t have included Snape because I see this whole father thing from Harry’s point of view. But Snape’s indirect influence is undeniable in Harry’s upbringing. Each of these character’s had a role in Harry’s growth. I don’t see Hagrid’s role in. I see him as a fun and comforting presence in Harry’s life. I keep trying to label it, like brother or uncle or imaginary friend, but none of these labels are accurate. Similarly, calling Hagrid a father figure takes away from his true character and role in Harry’s life.
If you call Hagrid a father figure and take into account his propensity to drink and find himself in weird situations, he turns into a negative influence on Harry because we’ve given him this fatherly role that has some responsibilities with it. However, if we leave him as a fun and goofy but loving character, his shortcomings don’t have that much of an impact oh Harry’s growth (which I don’t think they did in the book).
I can’t talk about Hagrid’s shortcomings without acknowledging Sirius and Lupin’s. I think Harry saw Lupin as a father figure mostly in the third book and this ended long before the argument in the last book. By then, Harry had matured and no longer saw Lupin as a father figure, but more an equal. And with Sirius, I think the fact that he (and Lupin) were Harry’s father’s best mates automatically gave them a fatherly quality for Harry. The fact that Harry knew Sirius was chosen by his father to be his godfather made Harry look up to him before he even knew Sirius that well.
I think it’s important to say this again; not giving Hagrid a fatherly role does not take away from his character, his role in Harry’s life, or his relationship with Harry.
Alas this will remain a matter of opinion and I must admit the counter arguments are worthy and thought-provoking.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:34 am
I am still having trouble when y’all talk about who Harry “see” as a father, I can’t think about any place in the plot where Harry ever thought of anyone but James as his father. The exception is Sirius who he thinks of as father-like but then Sirius is his godfather and he SHOULD be thinking of him as father-like. Harry even describes Sirius’ role as “like” a parent in Goblet (pg22):
“What he really wanted (and it felt almost shameful to admit it to himself) was someone like—someone like a parent: an adult wizard who’s advice he could ask without feeling stupid, someone who cared about him and and experience with Dark Magic…”
Lupin, Arthur, Dumbledore, Hagrid and yes even Vernon and Snape…are male role models but I think, as I have said over and over if you are talking about how HARRY sees people, he sees James as his father, Sirius as his Godfather, Arthur as his friend’s dad and so on. From Harry’s view things are pretty basic. The character of Harry Potter is many things but not until the very end of the stories is he anything like deep.
But in the PLOT—the what happens part of the story those men are male role models. All to some degree flawed but all to some degree redeemable…well maybe not Vernon,,,, But most have more good than bad to them. And again, contrasting plot to literary symbolism, when you talk about father representations, there are lots with that role taken on interchangeably by many of the male characters.
But maybe I am missing something. I would be interested in seeing where in the plot, the straight out story, Harry sees anyone (with the exception of Sirius in his role of godfather) but James as a father.
November 14th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
Well Bill you got me by a decade. We will have to get together and share a can of Ensure sometime. I still say Hagrid is the man!!! A powerful and near invulnerable fighter that has the heart of a puppy. I think partying with Hagrid would be pretty wild. Anyways that horse is beat into the ground. Hagrid Rulz!!! Nuff said….
If we are using such liberal terms in defining father figures why limit ourselves to sex? Professor Monagal was definitally a responsible role model / protector and mentor. I feel Harry revered her as the example of what an authoritative parent should be. Am I wrong? Besides she rocked in Clash of the Titans….
November 14th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
Bill- I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree on the Hagrid issue. I don’t doubt that we will have more of these disagreements in the future but I look forward to them and I appreciate that you challenge me and make me think twice about my opinions.
And Mizz Andy- What do you mean you don’t always agree with me?!?!?!?! I thought we had that females always stick together thing going on here!!! Just Kidding.
Snapes Widow: A lot of good that song did Cameron.
November 14th, 2007 at 2:16 pm
I know this is off topic, and I LOVE the show, but I do wish to form a complaint. I only JUST listened to Episode 55, and was appalled at how you depicted Christians. When you mentioned at the end about religious views on being gay, seemingly implying Christians, I was shocked at how you depicted ALL Christians as against being gay, and couldn’t believe how you were talking about being unprejudice and then seemed to act prejudice towards Christians yourselfs! I am Christian and love gay people and am NOT intolerant of them! I really do love the show, but I felt I had to let you know that Christians are not all like Laura Malarie! In fact, I don’t know of any Christians where I live who don’t love gay people. The first Commandment is, after all, “Love your neighbor as yourself!” I do love your show, but I felt I had to speak up for my religion because the way you phrased the end of the show seemed to imply that you believed all Christians were intolerant!
November 14th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
I love being off topic. I thought the first commandment was ‘You shall have no other gods before Me.’ and I don’t recall the love thy neighbor thing being one of them unless you are talking a desparate housewifes episode. Being a Christian I have always respected how Greg and Penny have handled the religious aspects of the HP Progs discussions. Sometimes it may seem that the analitical way Greg approaches christianity can be freaky but I know I sound much worse talking about the Jewish religion and just like the people here mean nothing more by it but to learn and understand. The point is taken that all Christian teachings I know of preach against homosexuality. I consider myself pretty open minded but will not be as immodest to think I am without hang-ups. All I can do is try to understand and hope for understanding from others. My feeling is that there is no offense to be taken here but in having open discussions on such hot issues as sex, politics and religions there will be disagreement. When handled civily this may not change your opinion but will definatly help you to understand the others viewpoint. Our differances are truely a gift and should not be made into a curse. Speak up as you have when you disagree and get clarification and I am sure you will both learn and teach by it. I do my best to try and be that way myself but this attitude Penny has tward Hagrid is yet another matter.
November 14th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Ok I looked it up.
“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:36-40).
Sorry bout that I am a stickler for the original movie with Charleston Heston. It is actually refered to as a commandment in the New Testiment.
Butterbeers on me! But I think that some people have to learn to love themselves to make it work the way it should.
November 14th, 2007 at 4:19 pm
Once we are nitpicking on the Ten Commandments, in Judaism, we consider the first commandment to be I am the Lord, your God. But that is completely besides the point.
Anyway, Muggle 123- I apologize if you were offended at our tone of discussion in that episode. I honestly can’t remember the exact discussion but I can only assume that when we referred to Christians being agains homosexuality, we were referring to (and I really hate this word for very specific reasons) more fundamentalist sects of Christianity. I apologize if we were unclear in that but that was our intent. By no means did we mean to infer that all Christians were against homosexuality or intolerant of other lifestyles- nor did we mean to infer that all Christians were of the Laura Mallory pursuasion.
Once we are in the apologizeing mode (and no Aaron, I am not apologizing for my dislike of Hagrid)- we received an e-mail after we put up the poll in the Dumbledore is Gay episode from someone who was offended that one of the options for the poll wasn’t “I think it is great” or something positive like that- the most positive tone we took was “It doesn’t change things for me.” anyway, there was really no hidden meaning behind that poll. Whoever made it (and I believe it was greg) did so in the middle of the night. By the time we get to posting the show on the website it is after the show prep, the recording, the editing- all of the technical stuff, trying to come up with something witty to write in the blurb etc…we are pretty knackered (to borrow a british expression that I love) so the omission of “something positive” was an accident and not malicious in any way.
November 14th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
Gosh I am glad you finally taught me how to spell Judaism.
November 14th, 2007 at 6:51 pm
Aaron you’re right. And I didn’t have to look it up, had it drilled into me years ago. It’s not one of the ten commandments…..Love thy neighbor as thy self is from the book of Matthew (Chapter 22 verse 39 actually—-there, big time proof that Baptist Sunday School sticks with you!) It is the second of Jesus’ two great commandments. the first is “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.( verse 37 I think)
No matter, muggle 123 made a fine point,”Love thy neighbor as thy self” is a pretty darn good starting point, Old Testament or New
Here is my one line opinion about Christians and the Bible and Harry Potter……SOME (note I say some) Christians are too quick to use the Bible to judge and condemn
and SOME Harry Potter fans are too quick to paint all Christians with the same brush. People need to see above I DO khat was two lines but the second was just a recommendation coming out of the first.
And Penny it’s such fun to challenge you I may never tell you if I actually think you ARE right. In point of fact we do have something strongly in common, that being a dislike of really beloved Potter characters.There are two I strongly dislike and can probably engender more outrage with them than you do with Hagrid.
And just to show you how fair I am, I will stand up and speak the names…..
Like I said I don’t always care for Sirius and Lupin although I find them interesting at times. It is not them, they are kinda okay.
Here goes….
I find Dobby generally to be very annoying! And horrors of horrors, not a tear was jerked when he …er …passed. I do however love Kreacher and Winkie. Especially murderous demented Kreacher before he took a bath and turned into Cup-of-Soup Kreacher. And I adore plastered Winkie. But Dobby…Well “Dobby is being one annoying elf sir.”
And it gets worse. I will say this and duck out quickly because people will throw stuff. I really really REALLY don’t like Ginny Weasley. From Whine at the Train Ginny to Ginnymort to A Fathers’ Worst Nightmare Ginny to Harry Fling Ginny to Freedom Fighter Ginny to Momma Ginny never once liked her. Not a bit.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
If we are going to make confessions and not judge, I must confess this. Please don’t judge me. I haven’t actually ever read Harry Potter. I just go by what Greg says.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:23 pm
Oh boy ! Here we go!
November 14th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
I must confess too I have not read ANY HP books or watched the movies without bondage and force.
November 14th, 2007 at 7:29 pm
I confess I tied her down andmade her watch all the movies 3 times and then placed headphones on her head and played audio books nightly. Isn’t that what love is all about? She still talks like Jim Dale(kinda Freaky)
November 14th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Okay…. this is hard but…
I didn’t like the shrunken heads.
November 14th, 2007 at 8:37 pm
I agree with Bill, I don’t like Dobby either, although I did cry in the book when it died it wasn’t actually for his death it was just the scene of Harry digging the grave that did it for me.
As I said earlier, not a big fan of Hagrid either, but the one I am really having issues with is Dumbledore, I just don’t think of him as that great wizard that everyone else does, now if he hadn’t been such a $%*@ to Snape…..
November 14th, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Penny, I can’t believe you haven’t actually read Harry Potter! I don’t believe it! You HAVE to have read the series at least ONCE! Are you joshing us?!
November 15th, 2007 at 10:14 am
Yes, I am joshing. I skimmed the books.
But seriously, Bill- I am in agreement with you on Dobby- I was never a big fan, although his death was emotional- but not a tear jerker moment for me. I will disagree with you on winky though. Not a fan of her. I love how Kreacher’s character and story line turned out though.
As far as Ginny goes, I have an on and off thing with Ginny, but I sort of hear you. Definitely don’t like Jim Dale’s portrayal of her.
And don’t get me started on the shrunken heads…or the Jamaican accents!!
November 15th, 2007 at 1:30 pm
I told you once before…those heads ar not Jamaican, they channel Jar Jar Binks. But seriously, y’know that the annoying heads are there so people won’t notice how awful the hairless werewolf or the bird eating tree are.
I pretty much despise the POA movie….probably because in part it remains my favorite book. And really I have heard that Cuaron is artistic and gets to the heart of the story and on and on and on. Bottom line, this is the man who gave us Hitler Filtwick and his frog band.
And Kreacher…..Ah Poor Old Kreacher! How his mistress would cry if she saw him with fluffy whit ear hair!
I really hate how the Kreacher thing resolved. Kreacher from Order and Prince is pretty much my absolute favorite character in all the books. I was not happy when Harry patted him on the head, he then felt all loved, went and took a bath, cleaned the kitchen and baked cookies.
I guess it is larger than just Kreacher because I was really looking forward to how she resolved the whole slavery thing. And she didn’t resolve it. I found it interesting that while Dobby was the one who most actively “won” his freedom (although it was Harry who actually coned Malfoy) yet he remains the most slaveish in his dealings with Wizards. (this is part of why I dislike him—I want to say “Hey ACT like a FREE elf for God’s sake!) Winkie was freed against her will and reacted by going into deep denial and drink. But here is Kreacher, still enslaved but actually the elf with the most free will, the one who is defiant, who mouths off, who refuses to work unless he wants to. Kreacher is the resistance. I thought she had all this set up for some great resolution that would make a statement about slavery. But then Kreacher gets redeemed by love—and as a loved slave makes a better one— Dobby dies a nobel death, Winkie is, we presume. still tossing them back and there is no resolution at all as to the issue of enslavement of house elves. I was disappointed by that.
But here is the real house elf question….those stuffed elf heads on the wall of number twelve….can THEY channel Star Wars characters???
November 15th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
muggle123: It was not our intention to generalize about Christians; if we did, I apologize.
November 15th, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Hmmmm I have actually been thinking seriously about what I may not like about The series or movies. I pretty much think all are fine. Even the shrunken heads do not really cause me concern. All the characters seem done well enough and aside from not really wanting it to end have no complaints about the characters.
Now for my issue. In the hype and prognosticating that we were experiencing in the pre-release days I read and listened to many many great theories and fan fiction. When I read (not skimmed through) Deathly Hallows, I felt it was a fitting tribute to many of those ideas and theories as so many were included it could not have been coincidental. I actually feel and think these ideas and story lines were taken from the fans and claimed by the author which is her right and because it is her world it is made so. Again I thought of this as more of a gift to the fans than a claim to their ideas. Why then the issue with the Lexicon? I would think JKR would not have an issue with money. Don’t see how she could really but perhaps not being able to claim this incredible information as her own as easily as she did the prognosticating fan fiction is a reason for her to join WB or the corporations whi I am sure are driven by profit. Has there been any other news about this?
November 15th, 2007 at 7:11 pm
You make a good point, Aaron. It is interesting. I did hear some talk about this. I think this is a difficult situation because JK Rowling has been VERY giving to her fandom (and I think Bill alluded to this earlier). She has put up no objection with the multitude fanfiction that has come out of the Potter stories (I just did a look at fanfiction.net and Harry Potter is by FAR the largest community there with 328,829 stories and counting) or the wizard rock, podcasts and books. The problem is that the publishers of the Lexicon (not even necessarily Steve Vander Ark, but I don’t know) have gone about this in the completely wrong way and it seems like legal action is the last resort by JKR and WB. My biggest worry is that this will affect Jo’s relationship with her fandom and how open she is to “lend us” her work.
November 15th, 2007 at 8:45 pm
I guess I saw some bows to the fans too but as Penny points out there are 328,829 on fanfiction.net alone. If you think about it there are a limited number of characters and a limited number of feasible stories (I think anything involving the giant squid’s love life is probably not to big a concern) so odds are that even if she never read any of the fan stuff some of it had to match up with what she wrote.
I do wonder how much of that JKR reads. How much do y’all read? I used to really enjoy the theories, still do but the knowing kinda takes the edge off. But honestly, I try fan fiction often but get tired of it pretty fast. I find a whole lot of it is much the same thing over and over. And some of the writing is dreadful. Occasionally you find a decent story, more rarely an outstanding one even but I ask myself if what you wade through to get to the good one is worth it. And if it is really good it can muddle up and I forget which is what and think some fan fiction fact is a book fact.
November 15th, 2007 at 11:44 pm
I agree with Penny on the lawsuit situation. It’s a shame, and I for one would have purchased both the Lexicon book and JKR’s encyclopedia. I reference the lexicon a lot and it would be nice to have a paper copy to work with, and what Potter fan in their right mind would NOT purchase the encyclopedia?!
I am personally on and off with the fanfic, like Bill I am unsure if it’s worth the time I spend sifting through the junk to get to the jewels… I’ve tried looking up recommendations from assorted podcasts but I mostly end up getting annoyed with it. And some of it is SOOOO long!!! I am a reader by nature, I’ve read each of the Potter books at least 10 times (DH prob only about 5 and counting…) so I would have the patience if I could find a great one. If anyone recommends one I’d be happy to try again!
November 16th, 2007 at 3:37 am
NevilleGirl - maybe you should be doing the podcast since you’ve actually read the books at least ten times!!!!
November 16th, 2007 at 8:10 am
Ok here is your Harry Potter related comment for the day. When your wife tells you that you smell like Hagrid always reply that she is as passionate as Herminie!!! Not very romantic to be sure but the resulting exercise from her chasing you around the house with a broom so early in the AM is quite envigorating! ( Welcome to my world)
November 25th, 2007 at 11:49 am
Weee, nothing really to comment since I’m behind on the episodes and just listening to number 54 right now. =(
Oh well.
Just letting you all know, for interest, that I am completely obsessed with The Marauders.
I LOVE SIRIUS BLACK. He rocks, he’s the best, I simply love him. James Potter also owns, and Remus, gosh he’s so adorable!!! =P Maybe has to do with the amount of fanfiction I read. Oh well. Don’t care.
And in an earlier episode, might’ve been the Podcastversary one, I completely agree that David Thewlis was NOT my idea for Remus.
Peace,
Ale
December 8th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
What about Hagrid?