Episode #56: Love in Harry Potter
Although in English we have one basic term for love, there’s really all different kinds of love: brotherly love, selfless love, erotic love, and all make some kind of appearance in the Harry Potter novels. In this week’s show, we take a look at love in Harry Potter and how the various relationships are expressed, and what the nature of those loves might be. Are all loves good? Can love in fact be bad?
Plus: the Top 5 tear-jerker moments from Deathly Hallows. Vote for yours below.
Also: HPProgs is a finalist in the category of Best Podcast in the 2007 Weblog Awards! Thanks for all your nomination votes! Voting for the final winner begins next week, you can vote once a day. We’ll post a link when the voting begins, we appreciate your help!
UPDATE: Voting is up, you can vote for us once a day!
In the news:
- JK Rowling clarified the timing of her announcement of Dumbledore’s sexuality and stated that she always knew that he was gay.
- David Thewlis thought HIS character was gay.
- Filming as started for HBP and pictures are online.Check out Michael Gambon’s beard sock.
- Rare first edition of Harry Potter and the Philosopher’s Stone sold at Christie’s for £19,700.
- Guillermo Del Toro would be willing to direct HP and the Deathly Hallows: on his own terms.
- The Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix DVD has been released in some Latin American countries.
- JK Rowling on “Living Geniuses” list. If you look closely enough, you will see where Greg penciled his name on the list.
- The French and German versions of HP and the Deathly Hallows were released last week with record sales.
- JK Rowling has updated her website.
- JK Rowling and Warner Brothers are suing Stever Vander Ark over a Harry Potter companion book set to be released at the end of the month.
This week’s poll:
What is most tear-jerking moment in Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows?
You can listen to the podcast using the player below, or download it directly as an mp3.
Tags: agape, bellatrix, Deathly Hallows, dumbledore, eros, Harry Potter, love, philia, snape, storge, voldemort
November 1st, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Greg and Penny, just wanted to check in and see if you’ve been getting my replies to the email you sent a little over a week ago.
November 1st, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Did nobody find that last scene between Harry and Albus, (”Albus Severus, you were named for two headmasters…”) to be a huge tear-jerker??
Dumbledore’s greeting Harry is all the way up there with that scene.
November 1st, 2007 at 9:29 pm
Hello
I wanted to commend HP Progs on how you handled and discussed Dumbledore coming out of the closet.
I agree with you Greg, about how the mainstream Harry Potter podcasts handled their discussions kinda poorly.
I am no longer a listener to Mugglecast, because they really showed their age and arrogance. They truly did not handle any of the reponses well. They sat on their high horses and deemed all others that did not think like them as idiots. I have no problem with Dumbledore being gay. But the way the Mugglecasters talked as if they were the only correct view, was disturbing.
I agree with the both of you. The news is not that big of a deal. I am just sorry that other podcasts cannot discuss such a issue with such thought as HP Progs. Thank you for your work!
Damien
November 2nd, 2007 at 1:42 am
About how having agape before eros is a good idea, when Penny was talking it reminded me of this: “Of a fine stout love, it may. But if it is only a vague inclination I’m convinced one poor sonnet will kill it stone dead.”
I also think it’s interesting in Rowling’s connection to Jane Austen.
November 2nd, 2007 at 7:57 am
David: that’s a great quote!
I really need to re-read Jane Austen; when I was in high school, I viewed it as abject torture to have to read her books, and didn’t really give them proper consideration.
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:07 am
By the way, who’s that guy wearing my t-shirt up there (scroll up to the t-shirt widget)?
November 2nd, 2007 at 8:51 am
Raffy- I found that scene touching. I also really like the general tone of that part that shows us that Harry has become a really good parent (when he says, “Then Slytherin House will gain an excellent student” in reference to Albus’ nerves about being sorted into that house- I love that part) and I think that it does a great job of showing how Harry even though he could have gone the same route as voldemort took his history and turned it into something positive.
I don’t know why I didn’t include any parts of the epilogue in my top 5 (8). I think I look at it as more of a *wow, that is so nice* part of the book as opposed to a tear jerker moment.
November 2nd, 2007 at 9:48 am
WhAT IS LOVE BABY DON’T HURT ME NO MORE! Harry Potter’s night at the roxberry……… Are you looking at my behind? Dobby was by far the most emotional for me. Luna’s Eulogy was _____________. The other emotional moment I didn’t hear much about was when Colin Creevy was being carried off. By that point in the book The numbness the characters were experiencing had been effectively transfered to me by that point.
November 2nd, 2007 at 9:55 am
The models are odd. I expect they enjoy the T-shirts a little too much. When does the lingerie line come out. I want to pre-order some Slytherin thigh Highs stockings for my wife.
November 3rd, 2007 at 3:05 am
I don’t know about any of you, but the part when Ron and Hermione first kiss was a tear-jerker to me…probably because I laughed so hard that I cried! My sister cried, though. Looks like that book on how to pick up girls worked for him, finally.
“Think of the house-elves!”
Amazing.
November 3rd, 2007 at 10:24 am
I really enjoyed your discussion of love, but it seemed as if we were supposed to come away with the idea that only selfless love was good, and the other types each got progressively farther away from the idea of love that was the most powerful magic there is. I’m not so sure that I’d agree that it was the type of love that makes it so powerful, but what you do with the love you feel that makes it so powerful:
Dumbledore loved Gellert and it blinded him to the dangers of power so that his own family was shattered and the world was subjected to the terrible wizard war that Gellert brought down on them.
Snape loved Lily deeply, yet was never able to forgive himself for hurting her and was never able to love anyone else again.
James loved Lily also, and his love was apparently powerful enough to help him transform himself from a jerk to a good husband and father and a powerful opponent of Dark magic.
Dobby loved Harry to the point that he was willing to risk his wellbeing while he was at the Malfoys (and ultimately give up his life when he was free) to save Harry.
Ron loved Hermione so much that he ultimately came to care about the things she cared about, to the point of honestly caring about the house elves’ safety.
Lily loved Harry so much that she willingly sacrificed herself for him, and Harry loved his wizarding friends and Hogwarts so much that he willingly sacrificed himself for them.
Each character’s beliefs and actions represents a variation of the theme that love is a powerful transformative force - but what each characters does with his or her love is what matters in the end. Falling in love is easy - like being born a wizard instead of a muggle. Living in love is hard - like becoming the most powerful wizard on the side of good instead of the most powerful Dark wizard.
November 3rd, 2007 at 3:26 pm
Wasn’t there a rumour that one of the books was going to be called “The Pillars of Storge”?
Still trying to digest the podcast, I think that Love takes from each of the Love’s described instead of just the one apart from Maternal/Paternal love as Love to me is ever changing because it grows with you.
Aaron - Can’t stop laughing at the Slytherin Thigh Highs
November 4th, 2007 at 1:32 am
Who would the lingerie be modeled on? Honestly, I don’t fancy seeing Greg in lingerie…
November 4th, 2007 at 11:22 am
Damien
I must disagree with you about mugglenet. It wasn’t arrogrance they were displaying. It was frustration. When the news broke of Dumbledore’s sexuality the more popular harry sites were overloaded with the meanest/ nastiest comments. Many of the mugglenet staff are gay and having to read, listen, and hear all of that for a week just made them jaded to everything else. Frankly, I didn’t want to go on any of the hp sites because of the nasty comments. It’s hard to remain neutral and objective when there are so many nasty comments.
On a side note, I am tired of people going on and saying “i don’t care if they are gay but..” there should not be a “but.” I find people who make those type of comments as someone who wants others to view them as tolerant but deep down they really aren’t and they are finding excuses to disagree with it while trying to put on a persona that they are.
I’ve said my peace.
November 4th, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Amanda- thanks for your comment. I hear what you are saying about the mugglenet staffers being exposed to a barage of negative comments. However, I think that the mugglecast staffers (some of whom may or may not be gay) still showed their age in their attitudes. Just my opinion.
I also think you have to make a distinction on the “I don’t care if they but…”line. I agree with you that there shouldn’t be a “I don’t care if they are gay but…gay people are….(negative negative)” - t here should never be pejorative statements that are made on the heels of seemingly innocent comments (rule of thumb is usually if you hear someone say, “I am not a racist, BUT….” then they are a racist).
However, if someone says something like “I don’t care if Dumbledore is gay but I don’t think this was the right venue to announce it. ” Or “I don’t care if Dumbledore is gay but I wasn’t overly impressed with the way this and this group dealt with it” it is a huge difference and that doesn’t imply a negataive or a faux tolerant viewpoint.
November 4th, 2007 at 2:40 pm
Random thought. When I started the podcast, I thought that the feed got screwed up since it started out with the music. Then Greg said it was the Dropkick Murphys, and I hadn’t listened to them since college. Very cool! It was also nice to listen to a podcast on something other than Dumbledore is gay right now.
Also, we need to keep working hard and voting for HPProgs in the Webblog awards because Greg and Penny are behind right now.
November 4th, 2007 at 9:16 pm
If JKR thinks Albus is gay, then one can’t really argue with that. Just as she determined other features of her characters that didn’t make it into the books, she decided on that feature of Albus.
But while we are talking about love, I just want to say that Albus’ admiration for Gellert was and remains a totally normal hetero kind of admiration that a man can show for another man with no sexual connotations whatsoever.
I believe there was even a Seinfeld episode about a “man-crush”.
There are several man-man friendships in literature that are very close without being sexual. Offhand, as a Rand fan, I think of the friendship of Howard Roark and Gail Wynand, as well as between Francisco D’Anconia and Hank Rearden.
November 5th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
Excellent episode. I teared up at how Penny read her tops; the first time I cried in DH, actually, was when Harry looked into his old cupboard. It was such a contrast between then and now, not just for Harry, but for me as well.
I cried a bit through the rest of the book, but I really started to cry in earnest all the way through “The Flaw in the Plan.” It’s still, I think, the single most intense chapter in all seven books.
November 5th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
I have to say that I am very torn with my top 5, Snape will probably ‘always’ be number one and I cried lots after reading that scene and his ‘look at me’ death scene but the scene where Hagird carries Harry out of the forest is following a very close second, even though we knew he was alive just picturing Hagrid carrying him as he did to the Dursley’s in the beginning and hearing all the shrieks from those that loved him I get a lump in my throat every time. I do have to say that the only other death that affected me was Hedwig and that was because Borders gave away a free beanie baby Hedwig with your book so that was a bit poignant.
November 5th, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Michal- to me, “The Flaw in the Plan” is a re-re-re-re-read, and if I cry it is more out of a sense of triumph than the gut wrenching-heart- hurting type of crying, but I definitely hear you on that chapter.
Mizz Andy- I can not believe I forgot about “look at me.” I think it is because I compiled this list from the ones that get me when I am listening to the audiobook and truthfully, Jim Dale’s Snape voice leaves a lot to be desired and the “look at me” just isn’t as powerful as it is when reading the book. Oh well. Good pull though.
November 5th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
You guys had some really good points. I think it would have been valuable to mention Dumbledore’s love for Harry. It’s a big part of his explanation in Order and is his justification for delaying telling Harry the truth. Dumbledore began to care for Harry, more than he thought he would. In the context of his relationship with Grindewald (I think I spelled that wrong), Dumbledore probably didn’t believe he could feel anything close to love anymore. His intention was probably to carry out his plans regarding Harry with the help of Snape in a clean matter of fact way. He was okay with sacrificing Harry for the “Greater Good.” But then he started getting to know Harry and cared for him and loved him like a son, and I believe this probably had an affect on his decision to have Snape kill him as a part of the plan. I think when he made this decision was another turning point in his life because he was motivated by a different type of love to sacrifice himself for this “Greater Good.”
November 6th, 2007 at 7:45 am
lalala- Good call on the DD/Harry father/son love. I agree that Dumbledore loved Harry like a son and this love led him to make some mistakes in raising Harry- like his witholding of information from Harry throughout the series- however, I don’t think that Dumbledore regretted sacrificing Harry “for the greater good.” I think (and to expound on this, I believe we talked about this in a previous episode) that Dumbledore looked at Harry as an extension of himself and he was ok sacrificing Harry because Harry would have been and in fact WAS willing to do that himself as well.
November 6th, 2007 at 10:26 pm
Eros;(air-os), and thanks for the dumbledore gay disscussion,, it was really mature, and good, unlike other ones…thanks keep up the good work, i agree with penny there are way more than 8 tear jerkers in deathly hallows
November 6th, 2007 at 11:22 pm
I agree with Sarah, there are way more than eight. I think there should be a contest…who can come up with the most Harry Potter tear-jerkers there are in the book, and whoever can come up with them will…I don’t know…get special mention on the show. I’d LOVE to be mentioned on HP Progs, but I never am, so oh well. But I think it’s a good idea for people to voice their opinion on their tear-jerker moments.
November 7th, 2007 at 4:07 am
I couldn’t begin to come up with a list of tear jerkers in Deathly Hallows. I cried throughout the book–over sad moments (especially Dobby–who knew I liked that little elf that much), poignant moments, touchingly funny moments, everything. Kreacher made me cry thinking about what he went through when Voldemort forced him to go to the Cave with him–and I’d always only found him annoying. And actually, Penny, listening to you read those bits made me cry. So not only could I not have named only five, I would not be able to limit it to eight either.
Anyway, thanks for the podcast on love. That was very well done, and put it in proper perspective, as we do see examples of the different kinds of love. I do think that the love we see as being empasized the most is sacrificial love in the form of the love of a friend and a mother’s love. Whenever that is the focus, it takes on a special meaning, knowing that Rowling was very likely thinking of her own mother. I know that I was thinking of my mom during a lot of those parts–she passed away in 1996–and it is something that I will always see as very personal in every story that includes a mother’s sacrificial love for her child. There’s nothing quite like it, and it’s hard to explain to those who weren’t blessed to have that sort of mother.
You touched a little on the eros love we saw in Half-Blood Prince, with Lavender and Ron, and Romilda Vane going after Harry–and that could include the love that Harry thought he felt for Cho in Order of the Phoenix. I too was very glad that Rowling chose to have her characters be friends first, in some cases for years, before they realized they were in love. But I remember saying something like that in a discussion that included a lot of teens who were highly offended by my not taking Lavender or Romilda seriously. I really think that Rowling used those particular romances to show the contrast between the infatuation of teen romance with the love that is lasting in a marriage.
I was also very pleased that she showed that boys and girls (Harry and Hermione, Harry and Luna, etc.) can be friends without it always having to be a romantic relationship. That was perfect.
I’m still kind of stuck on the whole idea of Dumbledore and Gellert being more than friends. And I hesitate to bring it up, because you did a very good job of clarifying it. However, I still, after re-reading those passages several times, see them as best friends. I (I’m a woman, btw–don’t let the Eeyore bit fool you) suppose it has to do with my having had a best friend when I was a teen; we hatched crazy plans and did all sorts of things together, spent all our time together, but there was never anything sexual about that friendship. And that’s my point–I don’t think there has to be, which is the reason I didn’t read it that way.
That was another discussion I had with someone when Order of the Phoenix came out–they wanted to see a gay character. I remember saying they needed to find a different book to read if that was what they wanted. JKR hadn’t included drugs, teen sex, etc, and I didn’t think she’d include a gay character for the same reasons–the books are widely read by children, and sexual orientation isn’t a necessary topic in a children’s book. (And my guess is that’s probably why it wasn’t part of canon.)
So even though JKR thought of Dumbledore as gay and that’s why he was so devastated, I still read it as the same sort of disappointment in a friend relationship when one friend betrays another. In my case, my best friend blatantly stole my boyfriend–if she’d just been honest and said she was interested I probably would have said OK (I wasn’t that crazy about him) and stepped aside, but it was the deception and the lies that ended our friendship. So when I read about Dumbledore’s disappointment with Grindelwald and his evil plans, that was my perspective–and a close friendship fit perfectly, with no other explanation needed. In fact, I still don’t see it, and I’m notorious for looking for hidden meanings and reading in things that aren’t necessarily there.
Pat
November 7th, 2007 at 1:49 pm
Eeyore (Pat) I am so glad that there is someone else who feels the same as me on the whole DD relationship, and you put it in words so well
November 7th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
Eeyore- Definitely well said on all accounts.
Edit, this is Penny not Greg.
November 7th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Eric Olander , i’ll take you down…just kidding, i cried so hard throughout the whole book, I think it was also a combination of sad, happy, shock, and oh my gosh this is it its the LAST BOOK!
November 7th, 2007 at 10:09 pm
I found it odd that moaning Myrtle did not make an appearance. Very odd. Seems like Bellatrix was a sad case. I mean Molly Weasely called her a bad name then killed her. I dunno maybe I am am just a softy for witches in black leather since charmed was canceled.
November 8th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Greg & Penny,
First time posting here. Just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your podcast on love. It’s inspiring me to go back & reread Lewis’ The Four Loves, although I have too much to read right now. Thanks for putting out such a great podcast. I only listen to five Harry Potter podcasts anymore, & you & Travis’ Sword of Gryfinndor are tied for first on my play list. Great job!
November 9th, 2007 at 7:50 am
“That was another discussion I had with someone when Order of the Phoenix came out–they wanted to see a gay character. I remember saying they needed to find a different book to read if that was what they wanted. JKR hadn’t included drugs, teen sex, etc, and I didn’t think she’d include a gay character for the same reasons–the books are widely read by children, and sexual orientation isn’t a necessary topic in a children’s book.”
I kinda planned to stay out of this and let it all drop but I gotta say…..
Being gay does not equate to teen pregnancy or drug abuse or any of the implies etcs that go along that vein. Nor should there be anything incongruent with something children read and gay people. I am gay and I was a child. I am gay and I HAVE a child, albeit it a grown one now. I am gay and God willing I will have grandchildren. Every single day of your childrens’ lives they see gay people, and probably interact with them. Just folks living life, the cashier at your bank, you mailman whoever. They will have gay teachers before their schooling is done and probably have gay relatives. So to say that gay people have no place in children’s lives is just plain silly. Now if Dumbledore had remembered a long explicit make-out session with Grindelwald I would agree that should not probably have been there. But I would also point out that several times, there is some pretty explicit straight teenage making out stuff. I notice nobody was worried about eight and nine year olds reading Ron and Lavender plastered together in a chair with no adults to be found. Nor does Harry and Ginny making out get anything but Ahhhhhs. And nobody seems to have any problem with the same eight and nine year olds reading Snape’s murder which is AWFUL or the torture Charity Babbage—that disturbed me—or any of the other very disturbing violence. But gay people have no place in a childrens’ story? Well, that is simply bunk…..for my kid, the place a gay person has always had in her story is the Dad’s place.
I also gotta say in defense of Mugglenet and Leaky that I thought they handled themselves very well considering the level of nastiness that was all over the message boards on both sites. Its’ not easy to have an intellectual adult literary discussion with people who are posting venom. And I am sure they were getting even more of the same stuff via emails. I actually thought the Mugglenet kids did the best job, given their age, of rising above it. But you have to remember that from where I sit, most of the Potter fandom —including y’all—are young folks and I was pretty impressed with the ability of all the sites to manage the reactions.
December 11th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
i love emma, ruppert, tom felton, daniel, bonnie. and HARRY POTTERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR