Episode #48: Dumbledore and the Greater Good
Before Deathly Hallows, our view of Dumbledore was nothing less than a saint; although Harry had his questions with his methods, certainly there was nary a doubt as to his motives. In Book 7, quite a different picture of the wizened old wizard is presented. Harry spends much of the book struggling with the Dumbledore he knew and the true person who Dumbledore was. We learn the dark secrets of Dumbledore’s past, and Harry’s role in the greater plan to defeat Voldemort. In this episode, we take a closer look at Dumbledore, his history and philosophy (both past and present).
For some great Owen Wilson sound effects, check out the World-of-Owen audio page.
In the news:
- John Williams may possibly score Movie 7.
- Filming for Movie 6 taking place in Wiltshire.
- Potter wins Teen Choice award.
- Stephen Fry celebrates 50th birthday with J.K. Rowling and other Potter-lebrities.
You can listen to the podcast with the player below, or download it directly as an mp3.
August 31st, 2007 at 5:51 am
Hmmmm Owen Wilson? Personal friend of the family is he? The Greater Good. This is an episode I have been craving. I am a history buff especially dealing with WWII and to understand what happened during this time to prevent it from ever repeating itself. The Greater Good sure reminds me of the philosophy of the nazi party. The vison of Hitler, ones which stem from his youth and his friends. Ideas that at first glance seemed innovative and spectacular. Add to it an effective public image consultant to build up the charisma mixed with events of the time and we had the seduction of an entire country by the dark lord. Penny said no one considers themself evil including Hitler. He viewed himself as a profit that was freely sacrificing his own life for Germany and the greater good. The political rhetoric and inaction against his aggressions only fueled his image and charisma. Here was a man that brought respect back to Germany. WHo could conquer without bloodshed. This was how he was viewed by the German people. We know history. The ultimate defeat of the third reich was total. Hitler thought that Germany would die with him. Oddly enough all that died was his memories and philosophies ironically more in Germany than the rest of the world. The Holocost did more to destroy Hitler than the Russian Army. This example of how the Greater Good can be an ultimate evil has erased this period of time from Germany and most of Europe. Very little remains in the museums of Germany. The old money banners , pictures , extc are regarded as illegal and shameful. You can’t even show a swastica on a World War II model Airplane. They are blacked out as a symbol of evil. Much like the sign of the deathly hallows. Nothing much else to comment on except why is the Harry Potter series filed under childrens fiction?
August 31st, 2007 at 5:51 am
50 not out i think is referring to cricket. I am not 100 percent sure about it, but it seems the most obvious answer.
August 31st, 2007 at 12:30 pm
Loved the show. To me, it really illustrates how great Harry is. He may not be as powerful magically as Dumbledore or Tom but his bravery and insight make him very impressive. Dumbledore called him remarkable in book 5 and I think he truly admired Harry for being able to see as a child what Dumbledore took many years to learn - that self-sacrifice is really the only option when speaking of sacrifice for the greater good. Harry would never consider sacrificing others but didn’t even question having to sacrifice himself. Even when going to his death, although he was afraid and didn’t want to die, he never balked against having to do it.
August 31st, 2007 at 2:30 pm
Hey Guys, 3 things, firstly I really want an Always T but want it in a different style, how can I go about that?
Secondly - 50 not out refers to cricket. It basically means his innings his still going but he’s reached a milestone, 50 and 100 are classed as half century and century are to get there without being bowled out is an achievement. Does that make sense?
Lastly - Dumbledore, I have never really like his character in the books and have never been able to work out why, book 7 hit it home for me and it was Dumbledore’s own words that showed me why. He has this thing for power and he says he didn’t want the Minister of Magic job because he was worried about what it might led to for him. Instead he is a headmaster of influential children and I think he enjoys that. In the end we see that even though he thought he had avoided putting himself in that position his love of control has still led to power over Snape and Harry.
August 31st, 2007 at 3:39 pm
Love the show! Have really enjoyed your commentary on the books.
Anyway, I didn’t hear you mention what I think is the key reason Dumbledore didn’t tell Snape that Harry had a chance to live even as he sacrificed himself. I believe that the magic that is created by such an act is intimately connected to the mind of the actor - the sacrifice has to be total, with no hope of escape. If one thinks that they might survive, then their sacrifice is not total.
Harry’s mother did not think she could stop Voldemort without a wand, but she stepped in front of her child, in the hope it would buy time for her son to be saved - as it turned out, her totally selfless act created a magic that protected her son.
Harry was following his mother’s footsteps when he stepped in front of Voldemort - he had no hope of surviving, but hoped that his act would allow his friends to live. If Dumbledore had given Harry, or Snape, any inkling that there was a possibility he would survive, Harry would have not created the magic that would protect his friends. Therefore, Dumbledore, to ensure that Harry’s sacrifice would succeed in protecting his friends, had to convince Harry that there was no chance of survival. Therefore, he could not have shared his love of Harry with Snape, nor could he have responded to Snape’s accusations.
While you and other commentators have noted places where JK Rowling has been somewhat inconsistent, wonderful pieces of internal logic like what I have described above is why HP is so rich, detailed, and true. You know that JK has a fully fleshed out world in her mind, one where each character’s motivation is understood and self-consistent. It is why I love reading the books.
August 31st, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Mizz Andy: send an email to harrypotterprogs AT yahoo.com and we’ll figure out the t-shirt thing.
Thanks for the cricket tip; I’ve never been able to figure that game out!
August 31st, 2007 at 10:26 pm
Hey! Albus Dumbledore has been featured as Wizard of the Month by J.K. Rowling on her official site. Check it out at:
http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/wotm.cfm
September 1st, 2007 at 4:56 am
First of all, I love your show!
I would be very interested to hear, maybe in some later episode, what you think about the way in which Dumbledore really pretty ruthlessly used Snape. That, more than my very ambiguous feelings about the concept of “the greater good” and even his use of Harry, is what I can´t be reconciled with about the “new” Dumbledore.
At least, he occasionally showed some remorse about having to use Harry, about having to set him up to die for the greater good. And ultimately they have the chance to make it up during the King´s Cross chapter as well as in the headmaster´s office when Harry is talking to portrait! Dumbledore.
But Dumbledore never seemed to regret what he was putting Snape through, had to put him through maybe, but all the same a little empathy would have been nice. And quite frankly Dumbledore would have really owed Snape that much at least. Dumbledore emotionally blackmails him into his role as spy, he effectively chains him to his feelings of guilt and forces him into a place where his only reason for living is atonement for past sins. And in the end, Snape finds that Dumbledore used him and lied to him from the beginning, that Harry was never meant to survive and he dies believing that his last act is sending Harry to his death too. Shame on Dumbledore for that!
September 1st, 2007 at 9:30 am
Does the end justify the means? To quote Spock - do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one?
Ok…you’re right, Dumbledore used Snape. Dumbledore used Harry. and maybe Dumbledore set up Harry to die. Dumbledore wasn’t the person we thought he was - but as Harry acknowledged, did we even really know Dumbledore?
Putting things into a little perspective here - there’s an uber-villain running about - one that ostensibly can’t be killed. This villain is turning the world as you know it on its ear. The people that aren’t being killed or disappearing are living in fear. No one is immune. And you know with a little manipulation you can have a very effective spy and by guiding one young man to his death, you may be able to defeat ubervillain and restore peace and harmony to the world.
What do you do? What do you do?
September 1st, 2007 at 10:17 am
I think it extremely arrogant of Dumbledore to believe himself the sole possible savior of the wizarding world, to see himself in a position that would make it alright for him to use and even sacrifice the people around him for his version of what “the greater good” is. And these are people who are on his side, who, for the most part, are willing to make sacrifices anyway (like Harry and Snape). I think he could have been honest with them and they still would have carried out his plans and he showed them less respect than they deseved by lying to them.
I see Dumbledore as arrogant and still very power-hungry and his secrecy, which far from furthering the cause could have ruined many of his smart plans, as an instrument of power. Why for example didn´t he tell Snape about the Elder Wand? He would have been much better prepared for Voldemort´s actions. Why didn´t he tell Harry about the Hallows, but made a pointless game of it?
September 1st, 2007 at 11:29 am
Loved the show as always.
Although I’ve always respected Dumbledore, I’ve never gone out of my way to like him. He was the parent figure to Harry. Also, as mentioned in the podcasts, he never burdened people with the truth- could this also imply that he never told Harry about his past because it would make Harry obliged to be sorry? I don’t know, maybe one of the reasons he never shared his “power”. I really do think it was extremely selfish of him to not tell mention his past especially to Harry even once. Both he and Harry know the impact of his powers and he himself, and this kind of information could be crucial after his death.
Another thing that’s been bothering me, is why he never told Harry about the Deathly Hallows considering he had been looking for it for most of his life. Perhaps, he didn’t think it was significant enough in the search for the Horcruxes, but JKR wouldn’t have made the title of the 7th book it, if it weren’t important. As a reader, I’m just curious as to why Dumbledore never mentioned it to Harry. Like the way, Snape left Harry his memory, it was very coincidental.
Snape’s death, especially the way he died, disturbed me immesenly. After reading about Snape’s past, and Lily and all, I really hoped that JKR would have shown a little more sympathy when killing the bravest character [without doubt] in the series.
That’s all [for now]!
PS. I should mention I’m a huge fan of the site and that I’m from Thailand. Not to brag or anything, but you have a listener all the way from Asia. Just thought it would be cool for you guys to know.
PPS. Is the Sept. 1 deadline extended? I’d really like to add something ^^
September 1st, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Arrogance - a character trait that both Dumbledore and Harry share.
I wonder if Dumbledore - or anyone for that matter - had simply told Harry that Voldie would try to lead Harry to the Department of Mysteries and by the way don’t go? - if Sirius would still be alive?
September 1st, 2007 at 9:38 pm
I think I need to listen to the ‘cast again to make sure I get it all, but it sounded good. Interesting thought via Dumbledore and the House Elves, though I’m not really sure I agree.
In any event, I still have a tremendous amount of respect for Dumbledore, despite what we learned of him. After all, the plan *did* work, and nearly perfectly at that. Logically, it makes sense for Dumbledore to conceal the “Harry was actually going to survive” bit of the plan from Snape. Not only could it have potentially compromised Snape’s position, but it would have totally nullified Harry’s sacrifice.
Also, the Thank-You book deadline IS extended. It’s now Saturday, September 15th, and everyone who has submitted and submits letters will be entered into a raffle for an HPProgs tee shirt!
September 2nd, 2007 at 12:36 am
First off- Thanks to Penny and Greg for extending the deadline for submission and to Michal for organizing the Thank-you book to J.K. Rowling- its nice to have an outlet for expressing our thanks to Jo for giving us a series that has given us all so much.
Ok, on to Dumbledore, I have to say that I personally admire Dumbledore a whole lot more, now that we have his backstory mapped out for us in Deathly Hallows- all the detail that Rowling managed to carve out a much more fully defined and interesting character who I think manages to encapsulate many of Rowling’s own political views and helps to ideologically contextualize the series in general. Ulitmately, I see a person who I think has been isolated by his own intellect, who had grappled with his own corruption by power, paid a horrible price for his incredible arrogrance and who consequently makes the hard choice by actively adopting a new political ideology(with a gradualist slang) and actively putting it into action by helping to bring about the fall of Voldemort.
Before getting into Dumbledore’s treatment and use of Harry and Snape, I just wanted to talk a bit about his ideological sensibilities, which relates to how he chooses to use Harry and Snape in his battle plan against Voldemort. Dumbledore’s platform of for “the greater good” goes through an interesting alchemy as we watch the events of DH play out. Greg laid this out pretty well in the podcast- through the death of Arianna, Dumbledore realizes that the greater good can not come from subjugating other people, it comes through the power of self-sacrifice. What is really interesting about Dumbledore’s letter to Gellert Grindelwald is that it reads very much like a political tract or Manifesto. A lot of philosophers and social theorists at the end of the nineteenth century looked to people like Karl Marx who saw revolution as the vehicle for promoting political change. It is interesting that Gellert and Dumbledore grew up in this era of ideological upheaval as Rowling has stated that events of the Muggle world tend to parallel that of the Wizarding world. What I admire most about Dumbledore is that he makes a very conscious decision to change his life, instead of falling further into the path of evil- he learns to concentrate his grief- and he actively repents for his mistakes. This is significant because I think making this kind of change is much harder than one would think. How many of us can say that we have made this kind of huge paradigm shift in our own personal lives? Tom Riddle never chooses the right path when Dumbledore meets him for the first time and easily recognizes the kind of arrogrance I think may have acted like a bit of a mirror for the person he used to be. Riddle really does not learn from his mistakes- he does not undergo the kind of transformation that Dumbledore does and he continues to use intimidation and force to attain his goals. Dumbledore is at the other end of the spectrum and chooses to use his extrodinary knowlege to not only extend the storehouse of wizarding knowledge but to use his influence to extend his benevolence through being Hogwarts Headmaster and passing on his ideals to the young, as well as helping to influence laws being formed by the Wizengamot. Dumbledore I think realizes that change can’t come quickly through bloody revolution and that changes come through the establishment of long-term goals. We see direct evidence of this in his development of the Order of the Phoenix, his study of Voldemort’s past, and his education of Harry to help him carry out the fall of Voldemort in the end.
Now, Dumbledore isn’t perfect, he did underestimate some of Harry’s abilities to be self-sacrificing by making his path even harder, but I think he was trying to help him do the right thing. Dumbledore I think had the bad habit of sometimes projecting his own failings and flaws onto other people- which also explains his treatment of Snape. I think what initially disgusts Dumbledore with Snape is Snape’s affinity for putting his own desires above the well-being of others and being selfish (he didn’t care about James and Harry being killed). Its true, Dumbledore used Snape’s loyatly to his love for Lily as a way of helping him use Snape to undermine Voldemort’s power, but at the same time he offered Snape a chance to perform a noble act and have his life really man something. Snape may not have had any love for Harry, but he definitely showed courage in the the loyalty he demonstrated to his love for Lily, and I think that ultmately still has value.
September 2nd, 2007 at 7:09 am
I think Dumbledore could have told Snape that it would likely be possible for Harry to survive without nullifying Harry´s sacrifice. Snape, as a perfect Occlumens, could have concealed that information from Harry.
And that Dumbledore´s plan ultimately did work out…I see a lot of sheer luck involved there. (the Elder Wand?)
September 2nd, 2007 at 9:34 am
Occlumency, like much of the magic in Rowling’s world is not entirely foolproof. I believe that in Order of the Phoenix, Harry manages to get a sneak peak into Snape’s tragic home life by using a sheild charm on him at one point during one of their training sessions together. Harry does make any immediate sense out of what he is seeing but it reveals the fact that Snape was still caught off his guard and allowed his mind to penetrated.
Dumbledore was certainly not perfect and I think his reasoning was that the less people knew about the larger plan, the greater the chance that the plan would not be compromised in the end. Aberfoth mentions that his family had been poisoned by living a life of secrets and Albus got into the habit of playing the role of secretkeeper a bit too well.
September 2nd, 2007 at 2:44 pm
I thought it was really interesting that Dumbledore tried to wear the ring when he knew of its power, but I don’t understand that if he knew how to use it he chose to wear it instead.
I would like to know what he saw when wearing it, like Ron with the locket.
I suppose it shows that even though he was a wise wizard he to could be tempted because of a weakness (his love of his sister). I like the way it all seems to come back to love.
I also had a thought that maybe the reason he said he trusted Snape infalliably was because he too had his past with his sister and it was partly his fault she was killed so he could see directly what Snape was going through.
Its funny before book 7 I used to see Dumbledore as this great wizard capable of anything and after book 7, I see him as an old man that is very good at magic.
September 2nd, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Sorry also wanted to add, do you think Dumbledore taught Snape occulmency or did VM? Or is it one of those things Snape taught himself?
September 2nd, 2007 at 4:08 pm
I almost forgot about voting on Podcast Alley! It is a new month! Loved the comments people are leaving!
September 2nd, 2007 at 8:03 pm
I think Snape must have learned Occlumency from somewhere, (possibly Dumbledore, after he turned his coat) but I think Snape’s talent for it came from his own nature. In the Legilimency/Occlumency episode a while back, Greg and Penny mentioned that these subjects do seem to be more suited to a “Slytherin” type of personality, as opposed to a Gryffndor. Certainly the level of secrecy and aloof-ness required by Occlumency would, I think, come more naturally than to a heart-on-his-sleeve Gryffindor-ish person.
September 2nd, 2007 at 8:21 pm
Ok I am convinced that poor Alan rickman is getting a bum rap. I mean he gets killed in just way to many movies. Bruce Willis and Kevin Cosner have both brutally killed his character. Now he once again is condemed to be killed by a giant snake. I think we need to petition that Snape survives in the final movie. Maybe finds another cute redhead and moves on.
September 2nd, 2007 at 8:22 pm
No I am not shipping Snape and Percy either.
September 2nd, 2007 at 8:47 pm
Aaron - at least we know he can pull it off, I’m a bit worried about Dan Radcliffe having to do some of his scenes from the book but with a veteran actor like Alan Rickman we can be rest assured he will steal the show. I am going to need a huge box of tissues for that movie!
As for occulmency, does anyone think it could be something you are born with? like parseltongue. Also do you think Snape looked into DD’s mind or do you think they both blocked each other out?
September 2nd, 2007 at 9:32 pm
They guy who plays Moody also gets killed a bunch of times.
September 3rd, 2007 at 10:40 pm
I like how Dumbledore has flaws. Just like Voldemort could be a guy next door villain, Dumbledore is the symbol of a guy next door hero/ good guy.
As for occlumency, I always believed it was something wizards/witches learn…some can do it better than others.
September 4th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Owen Wilson IS Harry Potter. I can’t find it on Youtube but do you remember the Oscar’s from 2001-2003′ish? Owen Wilson dressed up as Harry Potter and Ben Stiller dressed up as Gimli from Lord of the Rings? It was hillarious! Owen had the glasses on a cloak and a wand and was all into being Harry Potter and Ben Stiller was totally bummed about being a dwarf with this thick beard. It’s really funny if you can find it somewhere please post it.
September 5th, 2007 at 6:42 pm
i liked that episode but i think theres so much more about him that u need 4 or 5 more episodes! by the way i think it would be awesome if you mentioned my birthday this sunday pleaz! thanx! bye!
September 6th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
Leslie - how can you say Harry is arrogant? I find him completely lacking in arrogance. He isn’t interested in his fame, all he wants is normalcy and a family. He doesn’t pretend to be more powerful or knowledgable then others and will even argue that his triumphs in the past were due to a lot of luck. Yes, he is rash and rushes blindly into dangerous situations but it is only because he wants to help others and doesn’t think much of the danger to himself - he’s Gryffindor through and through. Harry is often torn I think - he knows he cannot complete his tasks without the help of his friends but he loathes having them in danger. His eschewing of the elder wand in favor of his own trusty one is proof of his humility.
Voldemort is the one fatally arrogant. His arrogance made him blind to his own ignorance and the folly of not relying on friends.
September 7th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
Looking forward to listening guys. I really hope that John Williams will be back for the final film. That would be perfect.
September 7th, 2007 at 9:30 pm
Hey Greg, Penny, did you guys know that “Eqqus” is latin for horse? I am learning latin by the that rosseta stone thingy. It’s very effective, and my mom is almost done with it. I’m going sort of slow on it right now, but I will get back up. ( I’m ten, by the way. )
September 7th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Sorry guys my web name is ginny. Remember me?
September 7th, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Im mrs anonymous up there.
September 7th, 2007 at 9:34 pm
By the way kimba i agree with leslie. Harry IS arrogant. I’ve found myself muttering, ” Dude, lay off so-and-so for a little bit. Sheesh!! “
September 21st, 2007 at 8:07 pm
Hi, Guys,
I delayed in commenting because I wanted to finish my second read of DH first. Looking over the comments I can see that my comment is in the minority. I think Greg in Toronto was the only one I noticed that shared my view - My RESPECT for Dumbledore went way up after DH. I mean he IS the mastermind.
As far as what he did to Harry - nothing he was not willing to do himself. Die, I mean.
As far as what he did to Snape. My response is this - yeah, it is easy to say “I’m sorry.” What Dumbledore said is Prove IT, Man UP! And, I think he was Totally Right.
October 8th, 2007 at 9:54 pm
I’ve enjoyed this very insightful episode. Excellent stuff here
November 12th, 2007 at 12:32 pm
Very insightful episode as Constance said. My potter-freaked friend and I had discussed on to whether Dumbledore did or did not set Harry up to die. My firend had stated that this was ’sick.’ My point on this was that Harry knew what kind of battle he was getting in at the end of Book 1, because at first, he was a celebrity, but then he was like, ” Voldy wants to kill me?” as the story of HP continues. I think that Dumbledore gave him that extra push, because he knew of Harry Potter’s character: bravery, modesty, not backing down, and caring. Dumbledore knew all this and said to himself, that he’s in total contrast to what his mortal enemy, Voldy, is; because everybody knows as quoting from the movie, Unbreakable: ” you know how you can tell who the arch-villain’s going to be? He’s the exact opposite of the hero..” I think this is essential to the Harry Potter series as well.
February 8th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
[...] you are wondering what all the fuss about Portus 2008 is, listen to our thoughts on Prophecy 2007. -Episode #48: “Dumbledore and The Greater Good.” -Episode #53: “The Making of a Wizard: The Story of Neville Longbottom” -Episode #55: [...]