Episode #47: The Prince’s Tale – The Tao of Snape
Without question, Severus Snape is one of the most intriguing characters in J.K. Rowling’s wizarding world. In the beginning, he was simply a mean teacher, and obstacle for Harry; but by the end of the series, Snape became a paradigm of sacrifice for love and courage, to the point that Harry names his son after his once-despised teacher. In this episode, we take a closer look at Snape, now that we have the complete picture of his tale.
For an insightful and prescient examination of Snape’s character, check out Orson Scott Card’s essay Who is Snape? (If you haven’t already, read Orson Scott Card’s book Ender’s Game
In the news:
- First British National Movie Awards nominations go to Potter cast.
- Tom Felton likes carp.
- J.K. Rowling is not writing a crime novel.
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August 23rd, 2007 at 1:42 am
Oh wow I had almost gone to bed. I really like the way you guys are alternating who picks the subject for the week. It compliments the chemistry of your show very nicely. 1st let me say I really actually like doasis whatever it is. She always has very intelligent views that make me think and learn things that I couldn’t get from anyone else but a polar opposite. 2nd I love the way you embarressed my daughter very cool. I will have to buy her the new shirt and send a pic in for the flicker group.
Now about Snape. One of my favorite subjects. I don’t know about him even now. Was there not a quote when Dumbledore ask him how many people he had seen harmed. Snape replied, “lately , none that I could have helped” Lately? was there a time when he had not helped or even harmed someone. Is this just a reference to James and Lily? Hmmm his mistreatment of Harry or at least unfair treatment seemed to stem from a grudge with James but I have always thought it was a needed disguise to shield his true intentions from Voldemort. I had the feeling that when Snape gave the info about when Harry was to be moved that Voldemort looked into Snape’s mind to see if it was true before he laughed in delight. Seems like a factor that may have prevented his relationship with Harry from being more like Professor Lupin. The Potions book in HBP which he knew Harry had seemed to be his way of reaching out. Look at Harry’s feelings and respect for that book and imagine the relationship that would have been had there been no Voldemort. After all this time? Why would Dumbledore have been surprised by that? Had Snape not been forced to supress his emotion he may have been able to heal. His grief still strong enough to bring tears to his cold protective shell. Lastly since I don’t want to run longer than the podcast. Snape’s true redemption is thru Harry. Wether his actions were done for Lily or for his own guilt at her loss the fact that Harry regards him as the bravest man he ever knew is all that mattered in the end.
August 23rd, 2007 at 2:13 am
Still waiting for it to appear on itunes and cannot wait, I am, since reading DH, completely and utterly obsessed by everything Snape so I am interested in hearing your opinions.
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:05 am
VERY interesting episode, guys. I cant write so much now, but I would like to say that I really like your interpretation of Snape’s attitude toward Neville. I don’t really agree that Snape involved himself with the dark arts as a way of subconciously distancing himself from Lily, though. I think that these were Snape’s two great loves, among which he felt safe and accepted. He didn’t see the irrevocable dichotomy between them, and this drove Lily away. I also think that his rejection of the term “Mudblood” springs from respect for Lily, as it was the use of that word that ended their friendship. It was a symbol of what Snape was not willing to give up for her, almost an act of penance for the path that led to Lily’s death.
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:43 am
Aaron- Arianna who posted about the art is YOUR Arianna? I didn’t realize that!
Michal- I am going to have to disagree with you here. The more I think about it the more I don’t think Snape ever loved the dark arts. I think his love for Lily had probably the biggest impact on his life, more than even he probably realized. Also, and we didn’t mention it- Snape ALWAYS wanted to teach Defense against the Dark Arts. I don’t think he was doing this to try to get immersed back into the dark arts. Thoughts?
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:52 pm
I think Snape only became so involved in the dark arts because, he wanted to do what all his ‘friends’ were doing and so it looked like he fitted in with all the death eaters. Also sorry if someone else has pointed out: I think Snape only became a potions teacher because Lily loved it so much and was good at it.
August 23rd, 2007 at 2:57 pm
OMG, I have so much I need and want to say so excuse me for the following ramblings *rolls up jeans and wades right in*
Ever since finishing DH I have been totally and utterly obsessed by Snape, I literally cannot stop thinking about his character. He was always a favourite but it has now surpassed that into the realms of worship. I have gone back and read all the Snape passages in all 7 books and last night read the “Who is Snape?” that Greg referred to.
Snape’s antagonism towards Harry – I believe was somewhat justified on his part, he did see James in Harry not only in look but also in behaviour, Orson Scott Card mentions that Snape actually only tells Harry off when he is deliberatly breaking the rules. Don’t also forget the bullying that James and the mauraders carried out on Snape, I know it doesn’t give Snape an excuse to pick on Harry but sometimes if you have been in that situation it can be hard to distance yourself. Not sure whether this is coming across properly, but I will add that the more I grew to love Snape’s character to the more I started to loathe Harry.
Snape becoming a death eater – I think Snape found a family in the Slytherin house, he suddenly found that he had friends, this for someone who has grown up alone can be a great swayer in the person you can become. Yes he had Lily, but once she was sorted in Gryffindor a barrier was kind of raised. She could not accept his friends, I think once the friendship had ended he immersed himself fully. I possibly think his passion for Dark Arts only started once he was in Slytherin, the spells he made up were in his sixth year potion book so he would’ve had time to learn a lot about the dark arts up to then. As for becoming a Death Eater, I think he was possibly worried about what would happen after Hogwarts, again the circle of death eaters becoming a family to him.
Snape a Slytherin – yes I truly believe he was one, you only need to look at the knowledge that he must have gathered, he knew how to brew Wolfsbane, he could invent spells, he is poetic and lyrical, only someone with great ambition could amass this kind of knowledge. He was a great wizard in his own right and I don’t think he was fully recognised for this.
As for Gryffindor, yes he was brave but along with the knowledge one could say there is a little Ravenclaw in him to. Maybe it goes to prove that he was a whole person retaining a little bit of each. (Not sure what Hufflepuff’s trait is).
Snape and Lily – I do now realise that this was his motivating power, I did think it a little lame that such a complex character could be doing it all for one person but ultimately love becomes his downfall.
I also think the it was James that drove him to call Lily a mudblood, it was their teasing that led her to rush to his rescue, he was ashamed to be shown up, and if he had been listening to Lucius and friends in his house the word would’ve probably rolled out without a lot of thought. I truly believe he never meant to say it and tried for the rest of his life to make up for it.
Snape’s death – I believe this was inevitable, I don’t think his character could live in a world that had been saved by Harry. But I have to agree with the Snape cast crew that JK did a horrible thing by just leaving his body after death. We never see or hear what happened afterwards, also the fact that he died in the Shrieking Shack which was the Maurauders hangout a little …. (can’t think of the word but I hope you get my drift)
Also final point for now, I do wonder if Snape’s bitterness didn’t arise from a little bit of frustration, are we to believe that after Lily, Snape was celibate for the rest of his life? I just don’t want to see him die a 40 year old …….. (censored so as not to offend) but you get my drift.
Sorry for my ramblings there will be more
August 23rd, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Sorry back again, just wanted to ask a question really, can explain to me better why Snape is an anti-hero?
As far as I can see it Snape was never the villian, only perceived wrognly as one, or is this what makes him the anti part?
The only wrong underhanded thing that I can think that he has done was passing on the prophecy. He wasn’t the secret keeper, he didn’t kill the Potters, he didn’t even really kill Dumbledore, I can’t even really see where he was that underhanded unless you count being a spy, but that was all for good.
August 23rd, 2007 at 3:49 pm
Great episode, Greg and Penny–and great comments.
Hufflepuff’s traits are being hard working and being loyal. So when you think about Snape’s loyalty to Dumbledore and how hard it was to remain a spy, still alive after all he had to endure, then he does fit all the houses. I’d never thought of that, particularly–only that he could have been sorted into Gryffindor for his bravery, and probably should have.
Which brings me to one thing I’d like to comment on. Penny, you were doing a hypothetical situation with Lily and Harry still being alive and what Snape would have done. I went some place else after reading Dumbledore’s comment about sorting too soon.
What would have happened with Snape had he been sorted into Gryffindor, along with Lily. They were already close friends and likely would have remained so. Snape was already into the Dark Arts when he came to Hogwarts, according to Sirius and Lupin. But Hermione did her own delving into the Dark Arts a few times, and it didn’t turn her into a Death Eater. It wasn’t the Dark Arts that corrupted Snape; it was the people with whom he lived, the Slytherin House of which he was a part.
There is so much in the character of Severus Snape that can lead to great discussions of our choices in life, but this one of who his friends were points to the importance in our children’s lives (mine are grown now, but I remember being very aware of their friends) of who their best friends are. It can really make all the difference in the direction a young person goes. If Severus had been in Gryffindor, it seems likely that he would have continued to hang out with Lily, or at least to talk with her. After all, she was still talking to him in their 5th year–that seems to be the year that she finally had had enough of his friends, of whom she could not approve. And if Snape had been in Gryffindor, with the divisions between the houses, especially Gryffindor and Slytherin, he might never have been friends at all with Mulciber, Nott, and the rest who became Death Eaters.
But that’s one of those times in life when we come to a fork in the road–the path we choose then puts us on other paths that lead us in a direction we may never have intended. I think for Snape, that realizing that Lily, the only person he ever loved (and who apparently loved him in some way, if only as a best friend), was the one who was now being singled out by Voldemort, was his wake-up call that he had made a terrible mistake. One of those moments when what you really want to do is go back and redo all of it, but of course, he couldn’t, and was left with those very real feelings of remorse.
With Dumbledore, we first see that he is rather disgusted with Snape, but then sees how Snape’s remorse can help keep Harry alive. Snape later is appalled that Dumbledore seems to have been keeping Harry alive only to be slaughted like a pig–he (Snape) and Harry were both part of Dumbledore’s “grand plan”. That gets into another issue of Dumbledore being very manipulative, but I won’t go there.
Instead, Snape was always loyal to Dumbledore, protecting Harry, sometimes against Harry’s own foolishness and arrogance. It doesn’t matter whether Snape did it for the greater good or for Lily alone. Not every hero is going to act out of nobility of character, for the love of all mankind. Harry, for all his faults, seemed to have that sort of motivation–that he was willing to die to protect others, even when he was only eleven years old.
Greg, I liked your characterization of Snape as a tragic hero. And it specifically makes me think of the memory in “The Prince’s Tale”, when Snape makes Dumbledore promise never to tell Harry about his remorse and love for Lily. Dumbledore’s response is:
“My word, Severus, that I shall never reveal the best of you?” Dumbledore sighed, looking down into Snape’s ferocious, anguished face. “If you insist. . .” (US version, p. 679)
So there we have a big part of the reason Dumbledore never told anyone why he trusted Snape–he had promised. I’ve probably said this before, but I was so very glad to see that the promises made between Snape and Dumbledore were just promises and not Unbreakable Vows. Dumbledore would never have required a vow that would result in death if broken, and Snape’s remorse was so deep that his word to Dumbledore to help protect Harry was enough.
I understand a lot of Snape fans are unhappy about the treatment and method of Snape’s death. But I think the bigger picture there is that Rowling is showing the horror of a civil war–not just war. But war that is fought between families and former friends, and fought on one’s own territory. In the midst of that battle, there was no time to carefully take Snape’s body out of the Shrieking Shack. But it was surely done later, and Harry is probably the one who saw to it. Death in time of war is not fair or pretty and Snape’s death shows us just exactly how evil Voldemort was. Voldemort, who by all accounts recognized Snape as his most loyal follower, felt no loyalty in return. If Snape was the one standing in his way to ultimate power, then it was nothing to Voldemort to have him killed, and killed in a horrible way, by Nagini. (That also was the only way that Snape had the opportunity to give those memories to Harry–a quick AK would have made that whole scene pointless, IMO.)
Sorry for all the ramblings–I have found Snape to be the most fascinating of characters since the 5th book came out, and was so pleased with everything that Rowling did with his story in Deathly Hallows.
Anyway, great podcast, and now I’ll go–I have some place I was supposed to be about an hour ago, but had to listen to your thoughts on Snape first. And I’m glad I did.
Pat
August 23rd, 2007 at 4:00 pm
Just want to clarify one thing. Even though Dumbledore was initially not very sympathetic to Snape, I think that in the memories it’s clear that over time the two of them developed a close bond that was built on trust. Dumbledore didn’t have close friends according to JKR, but Severus seems to be one of the few in whom he confided any of his plans regarding Voldemort, before he started tutoring Harry in HBP–and then only because he knew his (Dumbledore’s) time was so limited.
Mizz Andy, I don’t think we need to worry about Snape’s adult lonely life–all the fan fiction out there has more than taken care of him. Ahem.
(Stumbling on some of it early on in my internet searches was what put me off of fan fic, to be honest. I really don’t want to know, and apparently for all the snogging the teens did in HBP, Rowling doesn’t intend to tell us about the adults–I’m so glad and relieved. LOL)
August 23rd, 2007 at 4:07 pm
thats MY Ariannnnnaaa
Snape Rules from the dark side!!!!
August 23rd, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Eeyore, I agree that we didn’t need to know about Snape’s love life as such in adult life, I do just feel a little sorry for him that because he could never get over Lily he never moved on. I can’t imagine anyone living being that lonely, it breaks my heart to be honest.
Also with his death it was the fact that it happened in the Shrieking Shack that affected me the most.
I wholehearted agree with you about the choices we make in early life and think this was one of the underlying themes for the books. Harry when he first comes to Hogwarts has the choice to become friends with Draco but chooses Ron. I always wondered if he had befriended Draco whether the sorting hat would’ve chosen Slytherin for Harry.
Another thought I had, was that Snape was also made out to be a bully, but when you read the backstory of the Maurauders, they were. They nicknamed him Snivellus, they taunted him, nearly got him killed. I liken them a little to Draco and his goons. I think a lot of the things Snape learnt about the dark arts may possibly have been to defend himself.
August 23rd, 2007 at 6:27 pm
Many thanks for the mention and kind word
, and yes, Aaron and Deanna are my parents.
August 23rd, 2007 at 6:55 pm
I suspect that Snape chose the Dark Arts and Slytherin because he wanted to be a part of something bigger than himself. That is why I suspect even if he HAD been sorted later – he still would have ended up in Slytherin and not Gryffindor despite being the bravest man Harry ever met.
Snape had to make a choice – between Lily and the Dark Arts and he chose the Dark Arts – and I’m not sure that he regretted his choice. He regretted being the catalyst of what happened to the Potters but not being a Death Eater.
As to the comment of Harry’s choice between Draco and Ron – clearly because of having been bullied by Dudley and watching Dudley manipulate his parents – there was no choice but that he would be friends with Ron. The question I find more interesting is what if Dudley HADN’T been a bully – but instead had been a good kid. Would Harry’s almost instant dislike of Draco happpened? Would Harry and Draco in fact been friends?
and yes, it was the Marauders who were the bullies. James alas wasn’t especially nice when he was young was he?
August 23rd, 2007 at 7:04 pm
Leslie – No James wasn’t nice, that’s what upsets me a little with Snape’s character, was it because James was good looking etc and in Gryffindor that he got away with it? Did everyone have a predispostion against Snape because he was from Slytherin and therefore considered on the “dark side”? – “There wasn’t a Slytherin that wasn’t a dark wizard” or something along those lines, I don’t have to quote in front of me.
I would’ve thought that Harry after seeing Snape’s worst memory would’ve felt a little more for him and maybe understood him a little more, Harry himself having been bullied by Dudley, instead he worried about how his image of his father had been tanished. Maybe I am taking too much of an adult perspective on it all.
What I do love is that Snape’s character is flawed, most people are, I definitely am but I don’t consider myself a bad person, just misguided sometimes.
August 23rd, 2007 at 7:14 pm
I think that was the conundrum that Lily was in – she didn’t like James – he might have been good looking and in Gryffindor – but he was a bully.
I think she seriously tried to like Severus but in the end, couldn’t. I understand that Rowling has suggested that if Snape had decided against the Dark Arts something romantic might have ignited.
I know Rowling has said she won’t do a pre-quel – it’s too Star Warsish – but I think it would be interesting to see the changes in James that caused Lily to fall in love with him. Alas.
August 23rd, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Ok what about the good girls who like bad boys syndrome? James was a seeker and had maybe a footballstar charisma but his click could hardly have been the cool dudes. Wormtail? Lupin? Sirius? all seem to be kind of an outsider or outcast from the norm. Sirius the 1st non-slytherin black and Lupin the wolf boy and Peter the rat with chicken feathers. James was a natural leader of rejects. Makes me think that Snape was meant to have been in their fold. Sometimes I think we sort to soon may well have been a vison of Dumbledore’s. Would not Snape have fit the profile of a maurader perfectly had he been a Griffendore? I can’t help but think that he was targeted not so much because he was weak( He wasn’t) But because of comments like All muscle and sports for brains. I believe he chose the adversarial relationship with James and was tormented for it. Lily was his childhood crush. Snapes feelings never spoken or made known had never been recipricated. James was more bold and Snape missed the bus.
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:21 pm
Aaron, if it was good girls attracted to bad boys, why wasn’t she attracted to Snape, his love of the dark arts made him more bad in my mind, I think that is my partiality to his character. James just came across as arrogant. I think possibly Snape was too much of a nerd for Lily, we learn throughout the books how intelligent he really is, maybe once she got to Hogwarts she was embarrassed to know him, the whole greying undies thing.
The idea of Snape as part of the marauders is an interesting point. Maybe a lot of the bullying stemmed from Snape being more of a threat especially if it was known that he was friends with Lily, wasn’t James seen flirting in her presence and then humilated Snape to get her attention. If you bully enough it is easy to get someone to snap. He played right into James hands and instead of devoting all his anger to him, hurt the one closest to him, Lily. I really despise the Maurauders after DH, before that they seemed quite heroic, now it comes full circle and Snape is now my hero.
Funny how one book can change your whole perspective of the other 6, I absolutely abhor Dumbledore’s character now.
August 24th, 2007 at 12:00 am
I dunno about the whole gray undies thing. LOL Not sure that would have carried much weight with Lily I had a pair of Pepe le Pue boxers bought as a joke for me like 15 years ago. Long forgotten I had figured they had been discarded and not seen them in years. My son who is 16 was doing an ROTC rope bridge demonstration. To look the part he wears my old Jump Boots and Camoflauge pants which are still a bit large on him. Well Long story short while showing off for some girls he ended up pulling an upside down Snape moment with the long lost skunk boxers. Instead of losing face in this embarressing moment he actually got a date with the girl he was tryiing to impress. Maybe she felt sorry for him. Dunno. ANyways my point was that Lily probably would not have been swayed so much by what was done to Snape as what Snape was doing or probably never had much more than feelings of friendship tward him. So much is speculation that I would assume since they were both so talented in potions that there was a lot of collaboration between them and Snape may have excelled souly motivated by a desire to impress the girl. Trying to win her over with brain as oppossed to brawniness as he regarded James.
August 24th, 2007 at 8:58 am
Mizz Andy – YOU GO GRRRL!!! We’ve got almost a whole chapter of a book from ya!
Lily, I think ended up doing what “was proper and expected of her” and slowly, as with Ron and Hermy, they probably found they were actually meant for each other. I think as much as Snape wanted Lily, Lily just never saw him as anything more than a childhood friend . . . never really gave it a thought as it so often happens with those closest to us . . .
Keep on writting grrl!
Vince
August 24th, 2007 at 3:42 pm
Lost ?? They werent lost neither are the trix ones you wear ….lol
how about the silivery chicken boxers?
August 24th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Vince –
Do you get the impression that I am obsessed by Snape, maybe? Sorry if I am so passionate about the subject.
August 24th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
Ok I really like Snape as well but just can’t put him up on a pedistool as the great hero. I am not discrediting anything Mizz Andy says but judgements against James or the Maurauders are limited only from Snapes facts. The other side of this story is very incomplete. James and Lily’s romance for intance my not have come to fruition until after graduation. We don’t know for sure. We don’t know if Lily and Snape ever had a thing. It is possible they did. Snape’s love of the dark arts and his associations from this may well have scared her off. As far as the Marauders go it would seem that they never actually had a purpose beyond friendship until adult life when they became OOTP members. Again we don’t know. Was Hogwarts as active and adventurous in their times. Was there evil being battled on the same level. I think not but again don’t know. Snape was a meddeler as far as the Marauders go. His mistrust of everyone always puts him in a nosey neighbor category. The attempt om his life by the Marauders was nothing more than curiosity almost killing the cat. There are so many blanks to fill in it should be fun though.
August 25th, 2007 at 5:12 am
Aaron – Lily and Snape most definitely didn’t have a thing I think . . . Snape was a familiar friend from the neighborhood who opened lily’s world to magic, that is explained her abilities. Again, I think she thought of him only in a cursory, friendship way and the sorting basically separated her and snape. Unrequitted love it is . . . on snape’s part.
I think Snape is a dick basically but one with some redeeming qualities. I have to disagree about the Marauders though – they were the school jocks and Snape was basically a nerd. Nothing like the relationship between Malfoy and Harry. In that case, harry’s fame and quidditch abilities put him on equal ground with Malfoy’s elitism and family position in the wizarding world. I think Harry and Malfoy was an example of class-ism vs James and Snape being one of clique-ism. Essentially the same thing but different aspects. Snape almost got killed not because he was a nosy-git really, I think he needed a way to show Lily that James was kind of a dick too.
I also don’t think Snape ever intended Harry to have his old school book. He was pretty pissed when he found out Harry had it . . .
Mizz Andy I can tell goes for dark, subtle and intelligent types . . .
August 25th, 2007 at 10:47 am
Well Vince I wouldn’t think they had a thing either but you can’t discount it. Snape’s obcession I would think warrents more than just a school boy crush. A hardcore Dark hero like Snape would seem to shake off as easily as the dandruff on his cloak. To be so consumed by her 14 years after her death if she never returned his affections? I dunno there could be a valid theory there. We have no real info to discount this do we? Stranger things happen all the time. Again I don’t discount Miss Andy at all but then actually the facts we have are few. So few that almost anything could be there hidden which is excellent for fan fiction. Did this final book wrap up the plot lines or create them?
August 25th, 2007 at 1:03 pm
JK Rowling loads most of her characters’ names with lots of meaning.
Does anyone think his name was a foreshadow of how he would die?
Say “Sever his nape” outloud…
August 25th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Vince – you read me well (don’t know how to do a winking emoticon)
I can’t get my head around why Snape would love Lily for all that time if it was unrequited love, I believe he probably read a lot more into the relationship than Lily but there had to be some urking on her part. He just doesn’t come across as the type of character that lets people “in” very easily.
I agree he wasn’t being nosey he wanted to show James up to Lily. Same way as he tried to show Lupin up to Harry with the werewolf lesson.
I don’t think JK ever intended to create such a complex character, yes there is a lot for fanfiction to go on but it always gets spoiled by all the slash.
As for his name, I always just thought it was the alliteration of the Severus Snape that made it sound snakelike, therefore shadowing his Slytherin allegance.
August 25th, 2007 at 7:54 pm
Ok I still find myself wondering about the whole was Snape good, bad or both thing. As a child he had a definite crush on Lily. He also showed he could be pretty nasty when he zapped the tree limb on top of Petunia at the playground. He was disappointed when Lily was not sorted into Slytherin, As we know the Sorting Hat will bow to personal choice and that is why Snape may have been a Slytherin. I think Lily was so numb and nervous about the process that her sorting was done purely by the Sorting Hat’s impression of her in spite of Snape’s comment about hoping she would be in his house. My intrest here would be had Lily been sorted 1st would Snape have still chosen to be a Slytherin?
I am going to go out on the broken limb that hit Petunia and say that there was a deeper relationship between Lily and Snape. I can see her and him being each others 1st love. The potions class at Hogwarts may have been a shared common intrest that futher propigated a more romantic tangent to their relationship. I view this as more of going from the crush stage to an actual boyfriend -girlfriend highschool relationship.
James was probably only in the picture as thinking, How does such a geek like Snape have such a hot girl” type of attitude. I am thinking James intrest in Lily was still developing and while befriending her had no concious intention of a relationship and this would have been mutual for her. Now of course Severus would view James as a threat. Snape would probably have been able to sense the chemistry between them and been very jealous. Such was the rivalry between James Potter and Severous Snape. I am convinced that such a cold calculating contoling but intelligent person such as Severus Snape would not have been so obcessed by Lily unless there was a pretty hot relationship to melt his defensive shell. You never forget your first love type of thing but his was paramount in his life.
Now to further speculate to why this relationship failed is simple. Youthful love while strong can be a burden for the ambitious optimism of the young soul. Snape enjoyed the dark arts surely facinated by the taboo nature and shock value. He was very goth you know? Now this not being Lily’s thing kinda creeps her out. This was an oppisites attract relationship that eventually caused the couple to grow apart. I will go one further and say Snape is the one who eventually chose to break it off. Snape loved his dark magic. His colleages no doubt had not much to do with a mudbllood girlfriend and her reservations about this complicated an already mismatched relationship. So Snape who can be an angry fellow broke up with her.
Lily and James. I see James flirting and teasing maybe being nice and a good freind but not in a relationship with Lily. This came later. Possibly even after Hogwarts. After James had matured. Possibly after they met again in the first war. Possibly the fact that Snape disliked James so much was a key factor for Lily to fall for him. Girls can be spitefull at times. I can see a very adventerous and whirlwind romance during Voldemort’s first reign of terror.
Snape of course was on the other side. Full blown bad guy. WItnessing such horrors and evil probably made him realize that the only light. The only happy memories he had were of Lily. In such a lonely dark existence without friendship, love or much else Lily would have become an ultimate necessity in his mind to hang on to his sanity. More important to him now as ever before and regarded as his saving angle in his hindsight. Imagine his anger. Hatred when discovering she was married to James and had bore his child. ENough to want to see James and the baby Harry dead. We know what happens next. I think it would have to be something close to this for Snape to have done what he did.
August 25th, 2007 at 9:26 pm
Well Aaron I think you hit the nail on the head! I agree with everything you have just said. Snape to me is a romantic so that could be why even after their relationship ended she meant so much to him. JK is very inspired by Jane Austen and I totally see Snape as a Jane Austen character.
August 26th, 2007 at 8:06 am
Kimba: I was thinking the same kind of thing, except: “Sever us”
August 26th, 2007 at 8:07 pm
While everyone falls head over heals for Severus, it might pay to open up our copies of Sorcerer’s Stone and watch the way Snape shamed Harry and treated him like contemptable garbage in a totally unwarranted way during that first Potions Class. Yes, he was on Dumbledore’s side. But he was a nasty shmuck who never got past teenage pettiness.
August 26th, 2007 at 10:24 pm
Raffy -
Thank YOU!! That was the point I was about to make but alas — I am a couple of hours to late ..
Snape took his love to such an obsessive point -
alright I am going to go finish listening to the podcast… more later
August 26th, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Yes, thank you Raffy. That was *everything* I wanted to say in a sleek little nutshell
August 26th, 2007 at 10:49 pm
See as much as he was a “Shmuck” I can see why he acted the way he did. Imagine coming face to face with the spitting image of one of men who teased you as teenager, and also knowing that this was his son to the woman you loved who you envitably (sp) ended up getting killed. He has a sarcastic/dark nature, I wouldn’t expect any less from him. And I will add that I have loved his character since PS, esp when I found out he was doing a counter curse against Quirrell.
If you can’t forgive him after finding out everything in DH then I think you never will and there will always be that divide among people and that’s what makes a great community. We can’t all be Hermione’s can we?
I will just add that this is not meant to offend anyone, just my opinion:)
August 27th, 2007 at 2:55 am
Thanks Greg – I was starting to wonder why no one else could see something in his name! I don’t think it’s a coincidence at any rate.
Raffy – I agree completely that Snape went too far in his bad treatment of Harry. He was highly flawed in that he couldn’t get past blaming Harry for the sins of his father. It’s a shame really because I think Harry must have been much more like his mother in temperament. He certainly wasn’t arrogant like his father.
August 27th, 2007 at 11:46 am
Hey guys- I feel I had to chime in with my thoughts on Snape as well in light of the discussion that Raffy’s comments have generated. I knew that Snape would eventually have his redemption story fully laid out for us in Deathly Hallows, but I still have a lot of trouble liking the guy because Rowling has really crafted a great flawed hero here. Snape’s goodness is not the same type of goodness espoused by Dumbledore- the type of self-less ideal that Harry hopes to uphold- Rowling makes the point that he is “Dumbledore’s man, through and through”. Snape’s reasons for making the sacrifice is scaffolded on his grief and guilt over Lily’s Death and the unrequited loved he held for her. Now, I am totally aware that Snape’s grief allowed himself to become centered so that he could keep Voldemort out of his mind and carry out Dumbledore’s orders but I still have a huge problem with way he treated, not only Harry, but the other students in his career as a Hogwarts teacher. Im a teacher myself, and I know that the most damaging thing you can probably do in that position of power is bully your students- its a horrible abuse, and I don’t think I will ever be able to forgive Snape for that kind of cruel behaviour- one of the first rules I leaned as a teacher is that you don’t bring your personal troubles into the job with you- its as simple as that.
This whole disussion of the strengths and weaknesses in Snape’s character reminds me of a great talk I went to at Prophecy 2007 called “Dual Lit: J.K. Rowling’s invention of a new genre”. The talk was given by Gwen Athene Tarbox, a professor at Western Michigan University. In her lecture she argues that “every great book establishes the existence of two genres, the reality of two norms: that of the genre it transgresses, which dominated the preceding literature and that of the genre it creates”… Tarbox reasons that Rowling transgresses a key convention of adolescent literature by focussing so thoroughly on the inner lives and motivations of adults- Tarbox feels that Rowling creates a new genre, or “Dual Lit” by opening up the world of adult motivations to children as well. Rowling has chosen to treat children with an unusual level of repect, trusting them to develop empathy for adult anxieties and collected grief. As a teacher, that is one of the reasons why I love the Harry Potter series so much and Deathly Hallows delivered a satisfying dose of adult anxieties: we see Lupin as a troubled father who is dealing with his own self-hatred, Dumbledore’s falliabilities are revealed to Harry both before, and beyond the grave (in the King’s Cross chapter), the Malfoys have come to the hard realization that the love for their son trumps Voldemort’s pure-blood mania, and at the heart of it all is Snape. Ah, Snape…. what a gold mine of a character! All in all, I am really pleased that Rowling mapped out Snape’s tale in such a satisfying way.
August 27th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
This thread of discussion has, even more so than before, driven home the point that a prominent, if not central, theme of the Potter books is the idea that each and every one of us is in some aspect a flawed individual, that absolute goodness and evilness are the extremes, with lots of room in the middle.
August 28th, 2007 at 6:10 am
Like always, this podcast was really well done. Out of the many HP podcasts, I love this one because the discussions are so detailed and deep.
I’ve always had a great dislike for Snape. I might have had a soft side for him at one point, but finding no reason on why, dismissed the idea a long time ago [till July 21st]. However, I think entire podcasts should be dedicated to Snape, and I was absolutely delighted when I read the title of this podcast.
Will be tuning in for the next podcast!
August 28th, 2007 at 7:00 am
I’m sorry to make this a 2nd comment, but I just realized…
If the Cruciatus Curse needs to “be meant” [by Bellatrix], what could the reasons be for Lord Voldemort to perform the death and torture curses over and over again? Harry’s reason was his remorse for Serius when he performed it. I was just wondering, because Voldemort wasn’t depressed at his rising years, and was pretty happy/content at the rise of his power. Not to be naive, or cliche, but why was he so evil?
August 28th, 2007 at 8:06 am
Ritika: Thanks! I think what it means to “mean it” when you do an unforgivable curse is that it comes from something deep inside you, some emotion. It could be anger or depression or rage or something along those lines. Or just from one’s own cruelty. I think Voldemort/Riddle always had cruelty in abundance.
August 28th, 2007 at 9:39 am
To add to what Greg said –
I think that Bellatrix had the same thing — an abundance of cruelty — They could mean it because they considered all other people below them — even the magical people were lower than they were
I don’t think Bellatrix could ever preform the curse against her master because the power to commit the unforgivable curses came from her belief that she was so above everybody else..
Voldy was quite arrogant .. on top of being completely evil..
August 28th, 2007 at 10:11 am
Why is everyone up so early?
August 28th, 2007 at 11:05 am
In light of Snape and Slytherin, what did everyone think about all of the Slytherin students getting up leaving the Battle of Hogwarts in the end. I am really disappointed that the only Slytherin that stayed behind was Slughorn.
August 28th, 2007 at 11:50 am
greg in T- I agree with you 100%. I really wish that JKR didn’t perpetuate the notion that slytherins are bad. I would have liked to have seen some of them stand up for the cause.
August 28th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
I was disappointed that more Slytherin’s didn’t fight against Tom (I won’t call him Voldemort any longer!). I would guess that many of them left but didn’t necessarily want Tom to win but just were unwilling to fight. Slughorn must have felt some responsibility for the situation (as he should) and that over-powered his usual self-interested ways. I would have liked to have seen most of the Slyherin students side with Harry and denounce the evil of some of their numbers. That would have been nice to see the sorting hat’s admonition that the houses need to unite come to fruition.
August 28th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
Well, I think a major characteristic of Slytherin House is self-preservation. While I wish more students had stayed as well, I guess it makes sense that they would leave. The odds were against the Hogwarts side, and many of them probably had relatives with ties to Voldemort– if they had been discovered fighting against him, their entire families could have been in danger.
August 28th, 2007 at 2:35 pm
I agree with Michal, I would think there would be quite a few children of Death Eaters within Slytherin. We do know that a couple return but they were there to fight with VM, ie. Crabbe and Goyle, I won’t include Draco because he turned into a dithering idiot and was no help to anyone. I think a lot of Slytherins would have been brought up believing in Pure Blood families so would see that VM was doing nothing wrong. Goes into the whole Nature vs Nuture debate really.
August 28th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Mizz Andy- Yay, we agree!!
August 28th, 2007 at 5:24 pm
NOT COMMENTING ON THE PODCAST TODAY BUT I HAVE A RANDOM FACT!
Mississippi (my state) Is the fattest and poorest state in america! Uh-oh. Well, down in the Deep South you get fat on fried chicken, ocra, gravey, yummy. But whatever. I know it’s true. Oh well. MAYBE we’ll all go on the Weight Watchers diet. But, I doubt it. SIGH.
August 28th, 2007 at 6:50 pm
I agree with you Michal – that they have the self-preservation thing and quite a few are obviously deatheaters’ kids but I was just hoping some would rise above all that and follow their consciences. Oh well. I’m glad she created Slughorn at any rate. Even though he had his obnoxious tendencies he was basically good-hearted.
August 28th, 2007 at 8:26 pm
I just wanted to say, I think what Snape did in the end was tragic and heroic but to me the thing that will always remind me of how much of a git he really was, was when he came to Dumbledore to ask him to save Lily and Dumbledore says:
“Could you not ask for mercy for the mother in exchange for the son?” and Snape responds with, “I have, I have asked him.”
Now I know after Lily actually died and he started working for Dumbledore he began to change as a person, but the fact that he would have once killed a child, a baby, for such a selfish reason as to just have what he always wanted (lily) says a lot about who Snape is as a person.
This doesnt mean however I dont love Snape’s character in the story. He did turn out to be one of the most interesting characters in the book. But I dont absolutly love him now that I know he was just in love with a girl and that is why he did what he did. When it comes down to it, if Snape loved Lily as much as he thought he did, he would have chosen her over being a Death Eater. It’s as simple as that. In the end he made up for his bad choices by spending the rest of his life trying to make amends. He should be admired for being able to admit his mistakes and making up for them, but not for going to the bad side and then running back to the good when things didnt go his way.
August 28th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
Megan, I agree with you 100%!! Thank you!
August 29th, 2007 at 10:40 am
I agree with you too Megan and also, if he truly loved Lilly, he should have realized how much her son meant to her and treated him accordingly. He is truly one of the most interesting characters in the HP books and maybe in literature altogether. He reminds me of Sydney Carton from A Tale of Two Cities – deeply in love, tragically flawed, and doomed. Snape didn’t reach his level of ultimate self-sacrifice though.
August 29th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
I wonder if the manner of which these characters died had any meaning. Voldemort seems to not kill as much personally unless angered as when he found out about Gringotts being robbed. A good example of his lack of self control. When he himself chooses to kill he almost considers it an honor to be worth his time. Now he ordered Nagini to kill Snape was this because he din’t want to see it happen or that Snape was not worthy of his effort? Snape was killed by a snake. One letter difference in the name. Was he a snake of a character? My rhetoric has become tiresome, Now is the time on sprokets when we dance!
August 29th, 2007 at 2:26 pm
I just wanted to ask if VM wanted the Elder Wand how did Nagini killing Snape help, doesn’t that just pass the loyalty of the wand to Nagini, or was it because Nagini was a horcrux? I realize that the loyalty actually transfered to Draco but VM didn’t know that.
August 29th, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Mizz Andy – Nagini was just a tool that Tom used to kill Snape not unlike a sword or a gun so the loyalty would have gone to Tom (had it been Snape’s to pass on to him). Snakes can’t have wand loyalty probably because they’re animals – hell, they can’t even hold a wand! lol. I wonder if it is only to wizards that wands give loyalty. If a muggle beat up Draco and took his wand, would the elder wand have been loyal to the muggle even though he wouldn’t be able to do magic with it?
August 29th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Thanks Kimba, I do wonder though that if Nagini held a little bit of VM soul then it did go to Nagini, ahh but then I have just answered my own ?, it went to VM through his soul. Haha at the imagery of Nagini trying to use a wand.
August 29th, 2007 at 6:58 pm
Essentially Voldie killed Snape because Voldie was…well…an idiot. He thought that to get the wand’s allegiance you had to kill the owner. Snape was the master of the wand because Snape killed Dumbledore (never mind the fact that Dumbledore got the wand from defeating Grindelwald but didn’t kill Grindelwald – only a minor detail).
Ollivander told Voldie that the Wand chooses the wizard. A textbook example of listening without hearing. Even if Snape was the master of the wand, its allegiance wouldn’t have switched to Nagini since Voldie directed the attack – not Nagini herself (and the fact that I’m not sure that licking the wand would have had any effect).
August 30th, 2007 at 5:31 am
The real reason Voldemort killed Snape with Nagini is because otherwise Snape wouldn’t have been able to have the cool death scene that he did.
August 30th, 2007 at 11:25 am
I am sure that this was addressed a LONG time ago but since I am new to the site I ask that you bear with me as I ask, what some of you will think, is a stupid question. Greg, you were reading from the U.K. version of the book…is there a difference in the stories? I knew that there were different versions but have no idea why. Thanks!
August 30th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Vicki- there are no differences in the story line. There are several spelling and capitalization differences (i.e., color vs. colour) and from what I understand it the earlier books a few wording differences since us Americans are just too stupid to know that a jumper is a sweater and a loo is a bathroom (these aren’t necessarily the changes that were made, but examples of what they might have been). Go figure.
August 30th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Hey Vicki- here is a link to the HP Lexicon that helps to illuminate some of the differences that Penny was talking about between the U.S. and UK editions… some of the changes are meant for clarification purposes and other is just differences in language and terminology. I think these changes became much less prevalent as the series progressed.
http://www.hp-lexicon.org/about/books/cs/differences-cs.html
August 30th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Leslie — Voldemort killed Snape because he believed that Snape had conquered Dumbledore. The mistake in that was that Draco conquered Dumbledore by disarming him. My guess is that something that trivial was brushed to the wayside by Voldemort … he probably considered it a waste of time.
Once Harry defeated Draco, the wand switched allegience to him … whether this was the defeat in the Malfoy Manor or in the Room of Requirement, I’m not sure.
Hope that clarifies it!
by the way — great podcast — just got to read it!
August 30th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Er — listen to it. Sorry, so sleepy!
August 30th, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Tom didn’t think much of expeliarmus I guess – he learned differently!
August 30th, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Can you guys promote the link to the YouTube video of The Prince’s Tale to the main part of the shownotes? I don’t see it anywhere over here just yet, and I know you mentioned it on the show.
August 30th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Elizabeth – Exactly!! That’s what Voldemort didn’t realize!! Draco won the wand’s allegiance and didn’t even realize it! He never even touched the wand. Voldie assumed that Snape was the master because he killed Dumbledore. But wasn’t. Snape’s death was in vain. Snape was never nor would have been the master of the wand. But as Greg so aptly phrased it – we’re hoping for a really cool death scene.
I wonder to whom the wand would have given alliance if Draco hadn’t disarmed Dumbledore? It would have been unlikely that it would be Snape because Snape didn’t defeat Dumbledore – Snape’s action was by pre-arrangement. Would the Wand’s “power” have come to an end? And Voldie STILL wouldn’t be the master of the wand?
August 30th, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Daniel- The link is in the shownotes for episode #46.
August 30th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
You know, Leslie, I think you’re dead right! I think that Dumbledore’s death would have ended teh wand … but then would the desecration of his grave have transferred his allegience to Voldemort? In that case, would the wand regain his power if someone did the same to Harry’s grave after his death? Sorry about the first post — I think either i misread it or tehre was an n’t missing from your post. Oops on my part!
BTW — There isn’t another Elizabeth on the board, just still the two. Just thought I’d add my middle name to make it easier!
August 31st, 2007 at 10:37 am
I haven’t listened to the podcast or read most of the comments, so I apologize if this has been said/refuted, but Snape abusing students make him a foul person, hands down. Think back to GOF, when Pansy made Hermion’s teeth huge and beaver like, and he said coldly, “I see no difference” and wouldn’t let her go into the hospital wing. Or when he told Lupin in POA in full earshot of the entire class -”I warn you that your class has Neville Longbottom” and made some public reference that he was an idiot. Or that he took points off for the class not knowing something but wouldn’t call on Hermione who DID know the answer. This is not just unfair, it’s cruel, when dealing with kids. There are thousands of examples of his actual cruelty to his Gryffyndor students.
August 31st, 2007 at 12:06 pm
Greg in Toranto:
Thank you very much!!!
September 6th, 2007 at 8:02 am
SOmebody took my Snape Shirt! UUUGH! I can’t keep a Progs shirt around to wear! Snape is cool he he…
October 8th, 2007 at 9:53 pm
I disagree that Snape telling the portrait of Fineas Nigellus “Don’t say that word” is indicative of the change in him. It is indicative of something important – “mudblood” was the word that had cost him Lily’s friendship, and I believe that was the whole point of his “worst memory”. I don’t think Snape likes Hermione, so this phrase isn’t trying to defend her, to say that she isn’t derisible, rather he has some painful memories and he hates the word and doesn’t want to hear it ever around him.
I do however believe that Snape changed. He left Voldemort because of Lily, but later I believe he has come to do the right thing for the right reasons, and not just for his lost love. It is his actions that speak louder than the words. When Dumbledore asked Snape about the number of deaths he has witnessed, Snape responded with something like “Lately only those I could not save”. And of course his “fight” early in the book, where he actually tried to save someone (Lupin, if I’m not mistaken) and hit George by accident. It is what he does that shows him in true light.
October 13th, 2007 at 4:58 am
Don’t forget that at the very beginning of Deathly Hallows, Snape watched Charity Burbage die. I believe that’s also part of what he meant when he said “Lately only those I could not save”.
November 12th, 2007 at 11:42 am
I think that Snape did care for Harry even though he resembled James and not Lily; Snape had to because I think Snape thinks,’If I love Lily, I must love his child.’ I also, remember that in the first harry potter movie( I don’t remember at the moment if it was in the book as well.) that Snape was chanting something to disable Harry from having a jinxed broom. I think he did care for Harry at this time because, of course, he didn’t like Professor Quirell, but I don’t think he could’ve let this happen because Snape is not all evil and probably couldn’t bare to see Harry so young( with Lily’s green eyes) to be hurt at his first Quidditch game. That’s my take on that.
July 22nd, 2009 at 11:04 am
Hi, I was hoping to re-visit this podcast but there seems to an error with the file. I was wondering if there was any other way I could listen to it?
January 23rd, 2010 at 10:34 am
Me too. I can’t download this episode either. Can anyone fix it, please? Thanks