Episode #45: The Dearly Departed
Ask not for whom the bell tolls, for in Book 7, it tolled for quite a few folks. The body count in the final book gets higher and higher as the book goes on. Some deaths, granted, were quite welcome, such as Bellatrix and Voldemort; others were tragic and shocking. All of them, however, held a special meaning for Harry and for the books. In this episode, we examine the specific meaning of that which gives ultimate meaning, the deaths of Deathly Hallows.
This episode is dedicated to the memory of Hedwig the Owl, Alastor “Mad-Eye” Moody, Dobby the Free Elf, Fred Weasley, Remus Lupin, Nymphadora Tonks, Colin Creevy and all those who gave their lives in the Battle of Hogwarts. And, of course, Severus Snape.
In the news:
- Rowena Ravenclaw is Wizard of the Month at JKRowling.com.
- 16 year-old French boy arrested for posting his translation of Deathly Hallows online.
- J.K. Rowling fights the law, and the law wins.
- Bookie lose over ambigious death of Harry.
- Scholastic printing an additional two million copies of Deathly Hallows.
You can listen to the podcast with the player below, or download it directly as an mp3.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:06 am
I heard that Hedwig was the saint of orphaned children. There is a Podcast done by a Catholic priest (I can’t remember his name). It is called “Secrets of Harry Potter”. I am not Catholic but it is interesting to hear the christian parallels. Of course HP Progs is my favorite Potter cast. However the roadblocks of life prevented me from reading the book as fast as you, so I couldn’t keep up with your podcasts for a couple weeks. I was going through HP Progs withdrawl, so I went looking for another pottercast to ease my cravings. I found you guys kinda late in the game so I had like 30 episodes to listen to in the begining. I like to listen to you guys when I walk my puppy Lucy. You guys are brilliant & I love that you make me think about theories I never would have thought of on my own. That is all for now keep up the good work, I love to listen to it.
Erin (25 yrs old will be 26 on 8/16, born & raised In Wisconsin)
PS. Greg I don’t think your accent is that dodgey,of course I am a born & raised American. But, I have heard way worse.
August 10th, 2007 at 7:01 am
Erin: thanks for the comment, and thanks for listening! I’ve listened to Secrets of Harry Potter as well, it’s an excellent podcast, and I highly recommend it. And good to hear some people appreciate my accent.
August 10th, 2007 at 9:25 am
Hm, was the 16 year olds version in French?
And Snape is still alive in all of our hearts.. right?
Haha.
I feel rather upset with myself that I am like one of the only Harry Potter fans that wasn’t really a Dobby, and I wasn’t really upset over his death as I was for Snape or Hedwig.
August 10th, 2007 at 11:05 am
For me, the loss of the Firebolt is symbolic of Harry loosing part of his freedom. It represented a time when the world was full of possibilities; now, Harry is locked onto the path leading to Voldemort.
Also, a few of questions you guys mentioned were answered by Jo in the Viera interview, and a lot more were in the Bloomsbury internet chat– that’s posted on Mugglenet. I just particularly remember she said that Bellatrix killed Tonks, and Dolohov got Lupin… and she mentioned a few tidbits about George.
And just a reminder to everyone: Thank-you letters to Jo are due on September 1st, so please email them to me at inkasrain@yahoo.com. Thanks!
August 10th, 2007 at 12:23 pm
I enjoyed this podcast very much. There are always things that slip through the cracks, and here’s the one that caught me:
Harry doesn’t really master Occlumency. He is able to keep Voldemort out of his head only when he is feeling grief, like after Dobby died. He even thought about how Dumbledore had told him that Voldemort couldn’t stand being in Harry’s head when Harry is feeling love. In fact, the very nature of Harry’s inability to shield his thoughts is shown when Hermione tells him to find Voldemort. Harry thought it was so easy because the link was always there, simmering. It had been pushed to the back of his head during the battle mainly due to his worry that everybody was going to die any second.
Penny, I agree that Voldemort was incredibly pathetic during this book. He basically thought, “This one thing I know will keep me alive forever.” However, nobody could tell him he was wrong, and even when they tried, he didn’t listen. This also plays into why Snape was more of the antagonist to Harry’s protagonist than Voldemort. Snape’s layers of badness were mixed with the one, very powerful, drop of remorse. It made him a much more compelling villain. In fact, I remember thinking (which was later corroborated by JKR), that Snape was more important to Harry’s development than Voldemort. That’s all I’m saying about Snape’s anti-hero villainy now, otherwise this post will be much longer than it already is.
Finally, Snape’s body. I firmly believe that after Voldemort died, after the celebration, Harry led people to Snape’s body. When Harry, Ron and Hermione left him, they still thought he was on Voldemort’s side. They were in the eye of the storm. It would have been lunacy for them to say, “Hey wait everybody, go get Snape’s body.” We don’t see everything, nor do we need to. We can infer that Harry took care of Snape’s body because he named his second child after Snape. At least, I inferred this. Harry is too honorable to just leave it.
August 10th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
I heard from an interview with JKR that George named one of his kids Fred.
How sweet. =]
August 10th, 2007 at 1:45 pm
I saw somewhere that Bellatrix ddi kill Tonks, but not Lupin. Dolohov killed Lupin.
I got this from wikipedia.
In an interview and online chat, Rowling gave additional information on the futures of the main characters that she chose not to include in the epilogue of the book.
Harry became an Auror for the Ministry of Magic, and he is later appointed head of the department. Harry owns Sirius’s bike, which Arthur Weasley repaired for him. Because Voldemort’s soul fragment inside him was destroyed, Harry can no longer speak Parseltongue.
Ron worked for a time with George at their store, Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes, and eventually became an Auror.
Hermione worked at the Ministry of Magic at the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures, and greatly improved life for house-elves and their ilk. She now works for the Department of Magical Law Enforcement and helped ensure the eradication of oppressive, pro-pureblood laws. She also found her parents in Australia and removed the memory modification charm she put on them.
Luna Lovegood has become a naturalist of sorts, searching the world for odd and unique creatures. She eventually marries Rolf, the grandson of Newt Scamander.
Ginny Weasley played for the Holyhead Harpies Quidditch team for a time, then left her athletic career behind for marriage and family with Harry. She eventually becomes the lead Quidditch correspondent for the Daily Prophet.
George Weasley runs his joke shop with Ron, with great success. He names his first child Fred, after his late twin brother.
Slytherin House has become more diluted and is no longer the pureblood bastion it once was. Nevertheless, its dark reputation lingers.
Voldemort’s jinx on the Defense Against the Dark Arts (DADA) position was broken with his death, and there is a permanent (unnamed) DADA teacher. Professor McGonagall, who was briefly the interim Headmistress, did not assume the position after Snape. An unnamed Headmaster was appointed.
Firenze was welcomed back into his herd, who acknowledge that his pro-human leanings were not shameful, but honourable.
Kingsley Shacklebolt became the Minister of Magic, with Percy Weasley working under him as a high official.
As part of the changes introduced by Kingsley Shacklebolt, Azkaban no longer uses Dementors. As a result, the world is now a “much sunnier place”.
Dolores Umbridge was arrested, interrogated, and imprisoned for crimes against Muggle-borns.
The Quibbler has returned to its usual condition of “advanced lunacy”, and is appreciated for its unintentional humour.
August 10th, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Aaron Says:
August 10th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Very intense episode! I really REALLY enjoyed it! I had always wondered why some of the deaths of these characters were somewhat vague in the details. For me Dobby was very heart wrenching because we saw him die after being so heroic! What courage he had to return to the place of his enslavement and abuse. Even with Belatrixes knife in his chest he was so proud to have suceeded in his rescue. Dobby’s last words were Harry Potter and never had that name meant as much to me as it did there. We have just so much left to our imagination when it comes to the other heros. Almost as if we were being numbed by the violence and sacrifices. Belatrix was told to prune her family tree so I felt she was responsible for the deaths of Tonks and Lupin but then so many of the final duels were not who I thought it would be. I was looking for a werewolf vs werewolf battle between either lupin or Bill vs Greyback. I thought Neviell was the sure pick to wipe out Bellatrix in some dramatic fashion. So many others that was not what I expected. The signifacance of the destuction of the Horecruxes being spread out among the students is key to showing Harry was not alone and his realization of this. I am looking forward to listening to your future podcast even more now as it has helped me understand and enjoy this book as much as possible. Thanks so much. I voted on podcast alley. I can’t believe Vegan lovers is in front of this fine show!
August 10th, 2007 at 2:31 pm
Arianna- yes, I believe he translated it from English into French.
August 10th, 2007 at 3:29 pm
Regarding the interviews with JKR revealing further details about the future lives of the various characters: I believe that in two separate interviews, JKR contradicted herself as to the jobs of either Harry or Hermione. I guess my feeling is that unless it’s in the books, it’s not really “known,” or canonical. Interviews aside, why wasn’t this information included in the books?
August 10th, 2007 at 3:57 pm
I can’t remember where I saw it, but the reason that the information in the webcast wasn’t included in the epilogue was because JKR wanted 5 things to come from it. Unfortunately I can’t remember the 5 but some of them were:
Happiness - she wanted folks to know that Harry had a family and was happy
Voldemort was really dead
Maturity - That Harry could name his child after Severus Snape showed forgiveness and maturity
and I can’t remember the rest. From my understanding was that there would possibly be an encyclopedia of sorts that would fill in the gaps about what happened post-Voldie.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Greg- she seems to have said that Ron both worked at Weasley’s Wizard Wheezes and that he became an Auror. So one could follow the other, I guess.
She didn’t put all that in the books, I’d think (and I think she said this in an interview as well) because it wouldn’t have made for very good writing. It would have made the epilouge a total infodump instead of part of the story.
I’m really looking forward to that encyclopedia.
August 10th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
I have to say that there were really only two deaths that really affected me, Hedwig and Snape. The first I was totally unprepared for so was still in shock for most of the book and the second I knew was going to happen but it was the way that it happened that tore my heart strings.
I have just re read the book again, actually only up to the battle at hogwarts so have a few more deaths to come but since I knew that hedwig died I did have a little more sympathy for Dobby this time around. Actually you were talking about the clues before the deaths and with Hedwig it did seem ominous that she was taken by Harry in her cage, normally they would let her fly and apparate the cage to somewhere else.
The saddest part for me with Dobby’s death, wasn’t actually the death but the way Harry dealt with it. Having lost my mother it stirred up a lot of similar feelings. Harry digging the grave and making the headstone were such simple things yet so striking in their symbolism and imagery.
The deaths at Hogwarts were less effective in my mind as they just happened and you saw their bodies later, for some reason I just washed over them as part of the story. Just call me cold hearted.
Anyway could go on for hours, I’m sure i’ll be back with some random comment.
Oh btw, Peter Jackson is apparently in talks to do The Hobbit or so the papers here are reporting, so there goes my idea of getting him to do film 7. I was seriously going to get some people I know who know him to ask him to do it!
August 11th, 2007 at 9:36 am
Great episodes — I completely agree with the notion that “the final marauder deserves more than an honorable mention” I agree, Penny, that the death served as the truth in war, not every single person gets a death scene — but Lupin? it seemed more that the death was rushed … Plus we had the death of Colin Creevey which did showcase the idea that when you choose to go into battle you in fact choose
I would have probably been more okay with just Tonks dying as awful as that is because I was not as emotionally invested in her character (and as soon as she showed up at the battle — I knew she was marked for death…since it was foreshadowed anyway..)
Fred was hard but I still think the ideas of Hedwig and Dobby the loss of the pure innocence was the most difficult to swallow. I like most Harry Potter fans have a notion of fairness and hopefulness in the world at large the loss of such loyal creatures was really hard to swallow..
and …. poor George..
Oh and Harry didnt die — read Dumbledore — That bookie put himself in a stupid situation
August 11th, 2007 at 10:53 am
It wasen’t George who died, it was FRED =6 really sad
August 11th, 2007 at 6:33 pm
I know it wasnt George — I meant that he’s now minus such a huge part of himself…
which would seem a bit harder than death to me..
Death is hardest on the living after all
August 11th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Love the podcasts — has been loyal listener for a while now.
I’m leaving lurkdom to draw your attention to this beautiful Snape meta by Rex. She brilliantly tracks Snape’s moral redemption throughout the history. She argues that just because he ‘thinks’ he’s doing it all for LIly doesn’t preclude a moral transformation.
Check it out…
http://rexluscus.livejournal.com/254445.html
August 11th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
BC- thanks for passing that along…its a great insight..I think was the only person on the planet who was a little weirded out by the “look at me …” line but that puts it in a whole new perspective..
Wow, I really should be packing (moving soon…) but HP Progs is so much more fun!!
August 11th, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Once I got further into the book, I thought Hedwig’s death made perfect sense. With the trio moving around so much, it wouldn’t have been practical to have her with them, and I couldn’t see Harry wanting to leave her anywhere, maybe at the Weasleys, but not even there. Not to say that she was expendable, but it did start the loss of childhood and innocence for Harry, which he was doing by officially leaving the Dursleys and having decided not to go back to Hogwarts. He needed to be focused on the task ahead.
I had thought Hagrid was going to die.
And I had always thought that the Weasley that was going to die was going to be Percy. I really liked how he was like the prodigal son, but then I would have been okay with him dying, since I wasn’t attached to him like I was Fred, due to Fred and George. But, it was perfect for Fred, that he died laughing and it was laughing over something with Percy, which they hadn’t done in a long time, so that part of his death was beautiful, but I wouldn’t have been upset if it had been done the other way around.
Dobby’s death was the most emotional though, not completely due to Dobby’s death specifically, but all of the emotions and actions around it.
The way Peter Pettigrew died made perfect sense.
I have a question about Snape, and not anything related to his death. I’ve been wondering if he was just really that skilled at occlumency, or if he was really skilled at occlumency but also took some kind of potion he cooked up to enhance his occlumency? He obviously was very skilled in it to have done what he did, and I think he was also very skilled in legilimency, too.
And now knowing the nature and origin of Snape and Lily’s friendship, I’m wondering with going back and reading the 6th book, if Lily was really talented in potions on her own, or was it that she had a lot of help from Snape with the use of his Half Blood Prince Potions Textbook, and now I’m wondering if Harry acquired that book purely on accident or did he somehow get that book on purpose?
That’s all for now.
August 12th, 2007 at 2:50 am
Becky, I believe that Snape had to be that good at Occlumency but I also believe that he was awful to Harry all the time just in case. I am one of the few who think that Snape did have a heart under that greasy exterior. If you go back through the other books, Snape has always been looking out for Harry albeit not always in the nicest of ways. I also think I have a soft spot for Snape because my Snape always looked and sounded like Nick Cave.
My problem I have been having is how little people are talking about Peter Pettigrew, out of all the nastiest people in the books to me he was the worst. He betrayed his friends and Harry and then grovelled his way back to VM. He deserved the most gruesome of deaths and I think he got off quite lightly.
Also wanted to add that I thought it fitting with all the deaths not once did we see Harry cast an AK, nor did he as far as we know end up killing anyone. Actually all the killing was done by the adults.
I also thought that it was interesting after reading Stephen Kings review that the only weapon of such used in the book was the knife that ended up killing Dobby. Was it meant to be symbolic that the elf died by means other than magic?
August 12th, 2007 at 12:01 pm
Erin: I love that “Secrets” podcast too.
Rachel: Thanks for the great info. About George, I believe that he chose to take a lesson from his brother’s death that life is short and you need to have your fun NOW. I think that he’s the type of bloak who would work with Harry and Ron to develop anti-dark arts items that are very funny. After all, evil people rarely have a sense of humor. Belly laughing is the propriety of the good humored. I think George really developed his “back room” products and kicked some dark ass!
Greg and Penny: I was so happy that you mentioned my comment AND that you are Sox fans! The Yankees are the sports equivalent to Voldemort and the Sox beat them at roughly the time that Harry vanquished the dark Lord. We could go on and on. Let’s have a moment of silence for the dearly depahted.
Beatrix and Bellatrix : Harry was named for Beatrix Potter of Peter Rabbit fame. I find it curious that the most evil woman in these books has a name so close to that one.
Disney has screwed up Americans’ sense of a great ending. Please keep in mind everyone that JKR is NOT a Yank and has never written a novel for the Disney corporation (they don’t treat their house elves very well, I’m told). See how your expectations were Disneyesque?. . .
Disney Rowling
Neville kills Bellatrix Molly does in a rage
Snape and Mad-eye aren’t dead They are dead and gone
Pettigrew will be redeemed Pettigrew doesn’t seek redemption
Formulaic and exciting horcrux random and seat of pants destruction
destruction
seeing all the deaths and Deaths in war happen, sometimes
their meanings clearly without witnesses
As we work through our expectations, we need to realize that our expectations are very Disney-like. Please remember the dramatic quotes at the opening of the book. Disney would NEVER do that.
One mystery that’s bothering me. In book 4, how did Fred and George get a time-turner to see the end of the Quiddich cup ahead of time?
August 12th, 2007 at 12:03 pm
I had that Disney/Rowling thing all lined up with spaces, but it didn’t come across. Sorry
August 12th, 2007 at 12:51 pm
I still can’t really think of Snape as a good guy, though for a while after I finished the book I kept welling up tears of awe for him and his tragic heroics. But I keep coming back to the idea that Snape really brought his end upon himself. Snape chose to treat Harry as James v2 from the instant Harry arrived at Hogwarts. I’m not saying he had to show any affection for him, or even that he be particularly nice to Harry– but he treated him like scum. As far as Snape was concerned, this was his opportunity to repay James for the hell he had been put through, and never mind that Harry was a completely different person. Had he not done this, had he even been coldly indifferent to Harry as opposed to blatantly cruel, the whole thing might have turned out differently.
Also, I don’t think that he ever got rid of his anti-Muggle born prejudice. In this respect, Snape was a Slytherin to the core– he did not think Mudbloods belonged in Hogwarts, and he was attacted to like-minded cronies. He was more at home with Dark magic and those who practiced it than he ever was with “Light.” He chose to become a Death Eater, and he wanted to persure that path. I think Lily was absolutely right in ending their friendship when she did; clearly, Snape had the best of intentions in regard to her, but he simply exempted her from his overall disgust for Muggle-borns. It was a dichotomy that simply could not last. Lily saw that, Snape did not.
August 12th, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Oh, I was just wondering if Snape enhanced his very enhanced skills in occlumency. I always thought he was good, but he was just deep undercover — a double spy, per say, like he turned out to be. He was on Dumbledore’s side, but he had to give somewhat legitimate information to Voldemort to keep up the ruse, most like the British double cross system during World War Two, that most helped enable all of the secrecy into the planning for the D-Day invasion of Normandy.
August 12th, 2007 at 3:22 pm
I re read the Prince’s Tale chapter last night and it gave an awful lot of information about the DD/Snape relationship.
Becky - it seems DD gave him the information to pass along. I think Snape learnt the hard way when he gave the Prophecy to VM, so I believe from the time DD agreed to hide the Potters Snape gave his word and acted for DD (Lily) only.
Michal - I think many people want Snape to be bad to make up for his sins to Harry, but DD said a few things in this chapter that made me believe that Snape did have a soft spot for Harry after all. DD actually asks him if Snape is doing it for his “love of the boy” or something like that and we get no answer from Snape. If he hated Harry he would’ve rebutted straight away. Also DD makes the comment that Hogwarts should sort their students later, implying that Snape’s could’ve been in Gryffindor.
I also think that Harry looking like James just made things easier for Snape to play his role, but everytime he looked at Harry he would’ve also seen Lily’s eyes to remind him of his promise. I can’t wait to see how all of this is played out on film.
August 12th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
I don’t think that Dumbledore was implying that Snape would have been in Gryffindor if only he had been sorted later - I argue that Snape could have been in Gryffindor from day one. To paraphrase Albus “it is the choices that we make Harry, far more than our abilities”. Snape could have chosen to be in Gryffindor - just like Harry, James and Sirius did and presumably Albus Potter - and been with Lily, but he didn’t. He chose Slytherin (see p. 671 where he tells Lily “You’d better be in Slytherin”). He could have chosen not to be a Death Eater but he did etc. etc. I think maybe what Dumbledore was suggesting that our choices may be different when we’re older, when we have attained a certain level of maturity.
August 12th, 2007 at 7:49 pm
Suzanne,
Fred and George are simply gifted strategians when it comes to quidditch. Earlier in the day, before the match, Ron was talking about how great Krum was, but Fred and George reminded him that Krum was simply one great player while Ireland had 7 great players. I’m not too sure about the seeker, but perhaps Krum was simply leagues better than him.
Mizz Andy,
We do get an answer from Snape. He said something like “For him?” and shot his doe patronus. Dumbledore asked him, “Still?”, and Snape answered, “Always.” It was always for Lily. It was never for anybody but Lily. Snape hated Harry because he only saw James in him. Only as his life expired did he acknowledge Harry without contempt. I think this was really the only way Snape and Harry could ever have had any civil interaction. By the end of HBP, Harry hated Snape, and this hatred didn’t die until the end of “The Prince’s Tale”. I think Harry would have wasted too much time being angry before Snape got to tell him anything. That wouldn’t have served any purpose in the war except to keep Snape alive.
August 12th, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Elizabeth - Thanks, i guess I just read Snape’s answer as also saying that he had been doing it all for Harry because of Lily. My thoughts would be that if he truly hated Harry and only done it for Lily why leave his thoughts for Harry to see (apart from plot point on JK’s side), surely he could just die having Harry hate him?
I do see that he hated Harry because of James but I do think his being a spy had a lot to do with the way he interacted with Harry so as not to let Harry know he was a good guy of sorts.
Leslie - I think a lot about Snape is missing from the stories, I liken him a lot to Draco, from a pure blood family that was on the dark side. We never hear about his parents only that they argue a lot. Children do tend to grow up a lot like their parents, so Slytherin to Snape might’ve been something of honor among his family. In direct comparison is when we see Sirius and James on the train talking about Slytherin and Sirius comments that everyone in his family had been in the house. I do think Snape’s prejudice’s ie. ‘mudbloods’ have come from upbringing.
August 12th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Mizz Andy-
I’m rereading DH, so I’ll be able to respond better when I’ve finished it. But the level of bitterness and downright cruelty with which Snape has always treated Harry really makes it difficult for me to believe that Snape had any kind of affection for Harry. I could totally be wrong here… but I just don’t see it.
Elizabeth-
I totally agree. Snape created a situation in which Harry’s animosity for him was too intense for him to believe anything Snape could have told him. Harry believed Snape because of what he saw in the Penseive, which I cannot imagine Snape showing Harry if he knew he was going to live.
As for Snape being in Slytherin as opposed to Gryffindor… it’s hard to say. Snape had the courage of a Gryffindor, absolutely, but would he have been willing to risk everything if not for Lily? Snape had definite Slytherin-ish tendencies, with his attraction to Dark magic and those who practiced it. If Lily had not been in the equation, would he ever needed to exercize that courage?
(I do heartily agree that they sort too early, though. The Sorting locks one into the characteristics of their House, and to a large degree determines the way one will see him/herself and others their whole lives.)
August 13th, 2007 at 8:38 am
Wasn’t Harry named for a family down the street from Jo growing up the Potter’s (she said in an interview something like I wanted a cool name like Potter..) so the Beatrix/Bellatrix is just a coincidence
Snape wasn’t a good guy he just wasn’t a bad guy either — He was morally ambiguous which is something that JKR is often saying the world isnt good and death eaters — we arent supposed to like Snape he is a mean guy who does admirable things in the name of obsessive love…
Do they sort to early? Slytherin has a reputation which fits Snape … bravery is an aspect of Slytherin as well but only when they understand how the outcome works for themselves — he does take care of Harry on some level but for his own means — in his mind for his obsessive love for Lily..
but thats just one opinion..
August 13th, 2007 at 8:50 am
I am truly enjoying all these great discussions on Snape. He was always one of my favorite characters. That is why I hated the 5th movie. The part where Harry was able to do Occlumency/ Legilmency (can’t remember which one at the moment) on Snape made me angry. Snape is portrayed as a very skilled wizard (in the book) because he was able to keep Voldermort from seeing into his mind but he ( in the movie version) can’t keep a 5th year student out. I understand they had time constraints but surely they could have tried to fit in Snape’s pensieve.
August 13th, 2007 at 12:18 pm
Hue,
Harry does use a protego spell to see in Snape’s mind during their lessons. That is how he saw Snape as a child, with his fighting parents. The only memories that actually went into the pensieve in the book were the Lily memories.
Meg,
I think the idea of sorting too soon is an interesting idea, mostly because some students are simply not prepared to help make the decision about where to go when they are only eleven. Wormtail (should have been Slytherin) and Snape (should have been Gryffindor) are the two best examples that show students aren’t always sorted properly. However Neville (could have been Hufflepuff) and Hermione (could have been Ravenclaw) are good examples that show the hat getting it right.
On the other hand, these examples also show that houses aren’t really all that different. There are extremely brave people in all the houses, as well as extremely smart, and hard-working. There are also ambitious people in Gryffindor (see Percy).
Snape’s problem was that while Lily always brought out the best in him, it was never enough to change his decisions until she was killed because of his spying. Only once she was dead did his courage come to the fore and make him the courageous person he was. I personally don’t think he was sorted incorrectly, despite Dumbledore’s thoughts. And perhaps Dumbledore would have preferred they not sort at all.
August 13th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
Elizabeth,
you are right…guess my love for snape’s character made me blind!
August 13th, 2007 at 3:13 pm
“It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.”
I find this statement really interesting, in DH we learn that DD is not the character that we thought he was because of his dealings with put Grindelwald, yet we see that he made the choice after his sisters death to file away his dark thoughts and use his power for good in a sense.
Why can’t the same be used for Snape? he made his bad choice by telling VM the prophecy and therefore sealing the Potter’s deaths, but to me he has been repenting ever since, same as DD. His decision lead to the ultimate destruction in his life. He could’ve gone all out bad because the one thing in life that he loved was dead but instead he chose to fight.
Being of my wise old years I think that JK was trying to show that everyone will make a huge mistake at sometime in their lives and it is the path we choose to follow afterwards that will decide our character not the actual event.
Sorry but I just can’t see Snape as the ultimate bad guy to me that role is taken by Pettigrew.
August 13th, 2007 at 3:14 pm
Sorry that was me above, wasn’t signed in
August 13th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
Mizz Andy-
I don’t really see it as Snape “repenting.” He wanted to do right by Lily. Telling Voldemort the prophesy was only an error in his mind because it concerned her. (That same action led to Neville loosing his parents as well- and Snape clearly never felt any need to atone for this!) Because of Lily, Snape attempted to do anything he could to reverse his actions, which meant turning spy for Dumbledore. When this didn’t work and Lily was killed, he kept Harry alive because he knew that was what Lily would have wanted.
And while I agree that Pettigrew was a despicable person, I don’t think that he was “the ultimate bad guy.” The bulk of his treachery took place before the series began, and we only truly know him as a kind of pathetic little worm. I don’t think Snape deserves that title either, but I think he’s closer to it than Pettigrew.
August 13th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
Mizz Andy-
I have to agree with michal on this one I can’t see “ultimate bad guy” status being awarded to Wormtail — a coward yes, and no doubt preferring to hide behind more powerful people but an ultimate baddie? I have to see ultimate evil as a complete disregard of what is good , Wormtail did not disregard the good, he chose the easy way (”if the time should come when you have to make a choice between what is right and what is easy…”) instead of the right one..
The guy who does Sword of Gryffindor gave a really great talk at Prophecy that he put up on his podcast about the real ultimate bad guy - Voldy (now every time I hear the name I think “voldy’s gone moldy lets all have fun…)
anyway, I dont want to steal from him so I just recommend that everyone go and check it out..
August 13th, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Sorry, ultimate bad guy was the wrong label to use, I sometimes have to type fast to stop my 1 year old daughter from beating me to keyboard and pushing the keys so I typed what came into my head first. Ultimate Bad Guy belongs to VM.
Between the two characters I see Pettigrew as the worst because to me his betrayal was the worst. He told VM where the Potter’s were only for personal gain. I don’t see the reason that Snape told VM the prophecy as being for personal gain just misguided, maybe to get back at James. Love can do strange things to people at times and Snape was man enough to admit his mistake to DD and to try and make amends by getting DD to hide the Potter’s, even if it all only was for Lily.
Snape is a flawed character like most human beings, maybe I see a little of myself in him so thats why I’m trying so hard to defend him.
As for the Longbottom’s, I really don’t think Snape realised the prophecy could’ve had anything to do with them, please correct me if i’m wrong.
Meg - I have just had a look at SoG after Greg’s promotion on the last podcast, I will go and download now.
August 13th, 2007 at 5:46 pm
btw - I am enjoying this debate as it keeps my brain working rather than talking baby talk all day, so long as Penny and Greg don’t mind.
August 13th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
MA (going for the abbreviation ;-))-
I think the crimes of Snape and Pettigrew were very different. Pettigrew, as you say, just sold out. “His own stinking skin meant more to him than [Harry's] whole family.” Snape was doing his Death Eaterly duties in reporting the prophesy; it wasn’t personal. I don’t think he cared who it was about or what that might mean for them– until it became clear that Lily was in danger.
This is really the crux of why I don’t see Snape as being all that good. It was all for Lily. If the prophesy had referred to a random Wizarding family, Snape would never have blinked. He never would have told Dumbledore to hide them, never had protected their son after their deaths. It even strikes me as selfish on Snape’s part. He just wanted Lily, period, end of story.
Wow, sorry if that’s kind of harsh…
Re the Longbottoms, we really don’t know if Snape connected the attack on the to the prophesy. Come to think, we don’t really know if they are connected either… never mind!
August 13th, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Michal - Your right, when you put it like that Snape comes off as the callous b*****d, I agree that he chose the path of being a death eater and they aren’t the nicest of people. But I believe that the prophecy was a turning point for Snape because as you say if it hadn’t have been someone he loved he wouldn’t have batted an eyelid but as it turned out he ended up killing the one he loved.
He could’ve just gone all and out bad from this point in revenge.
From this point on we only see Snape acting for good, in other words he saw the error of his ways. As far as JK shows, Snape from this point on only acted for DD. Do we know whether he performed anymore nasty things after this point? Apart from Killing DD, but we now know why he did this. I don’t think we ever saw him performing a unforgivable throughout the books?
August 13th, 2007 at 7:45 pm
Did Snape who it was referencing right away? I thought he found out later (once Voldy made the connection) so he was using the prophesy for personal gain — to get on the good side of the dark lord..
I agree with Michal on this — Snape’s blind obsessive love had him do good for his own gain — in his mind protecting Lily’s son brought him closer to the woman that HIS OWN ACTIONS caused to be hunted by Voldy. Yes Pettigrew’s betrayal was HUGE but Snape’s telling the Dark Lord about the prophecy led to Lily’s death as much as Pettigrew’s actions — how would he have known about it otherwise. I think Snape’s protection was as much out of guilt as anything else..
Although I did like the complexity his love brought as a character it made Snape seem like a person instead of this dark figure in the corner..
August 13th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
MA-
The prophesy absolutely was a turning point for Snape, no question. It was when he was forced to put Lily above his other love– the Dark arts. You could even say it shows growth from his time at Hogwarts, when he couldn’t give up his questionable crowd for Lily. But I just don’t think it can be counted as “good,” or as Snape seeing the error of his ways. He acted for good afterwards, but it was for selfish reasons.
And while he may have been on the right side, I still have to maintain that Snape treated Harry with the virluence that he did because of James. He refused to treat Harry as his own person. And aside from everything else, I will never forgive him for treating Neville like he did. No excuse!
August 13th, 2007 at 8:48 pm
I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one. That’s why I believe JK has done such a wonderful job with these books, that people can each pull from them what they want.
I will agree that Snape is a nasty character when it comes to his interaction with Harry and also with Neville, but bitterness can do bad things to people, as can Love.
As with Neville, could he not say that the people in his life have made him the person he is. Have all not had someone, a teacher, a relative whom we have hated but could easily say that we learnt a lot from them. Sometimes there is that person out there who pushes the boundaries to get the most from you.
I’m only making excuses now because I don’t want to believe that the Snape I have in my mind is that evil
August 13th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
Yeah, I was thinking we might be reaching the end of this. Well, Jo said that we would still have plenty to discuss after DH; she wasn’t kidding!
Gotta say that I don’t think Snape was just “pushing Neville’s bounderies,” though. I think he was being nasty…
I’m lookig forward to hearing what Greg and Penny have to say about all this.
August 13th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
I dont think Snape cared if Neville succeeded or failed — it was more just to be a “slimy git” …
On to a more pressing subject….
I will think of one in a bit…
I have about 3,000,000 questions..I wish Jo would write the encyclopedia now..
August 14th, 2007 at 3:32 am
Nice dialogue you guys have going on here . . . I will interrupt so late in the conversation only to say that I think JK wrote Snape very well and very realistically. Most villains are cast so extreme and shallow. Moldy Voldy was written this way to a certain extent - it is like Greg pointed out that the real antagonist to Harry’s being the protagonist is Snape. I don’t think it was ever about Snape being redeemable - his killing of Dumblydore pretty much set his path, whether for good or bad in intent. I still stand by my statement - Snape’s a dick. He’s got personal issues that drive some decisions favourably for Harry and his bunch but is clearly a self-serving git. Still he does have a sense of style doesn’t he . . .
By the way - the 16yr old genius in France got off. The publisher would have looked pretty lame pressing charges and attacking the fan base. They admitted that the translation was of professional level - I hope they help channel the kids talent . . . Sheesh - I’d give him work if I knew who he was . . .
August 14th, 2007 at 3:52 am
Ok, can’t help myself but I will have to stop because I am obviously standing alone on this one.
Snape must’ve had something nice about him because he was friends with Lily for a few years, but then James apparently was a bit of a dick too so maybe she just liked bad men.
Anyway stopping now, I realise I can’t convince any of you:)
August 14th, 2007 at 5:50 am
Mizz Andy - I think you’re not all the way wrong. I personally think Snape is a dick but then again Dumblydore did say that the one power voldy never understood was love and because of that, Snape was able to effectively play his role as a death eater AND maintain his fight against voldy . . .
He’s cool in a greasy kind of way and he does really end up laying it all down for Harry in the end there doesn’t he . . . so don’t let tha’ masses get you down!
August 14th, 2007 at 10:00 am
Who pointed out the snake comparison (live by the snake…)
remember Snape was fascinated by the dark arts either way..
I dont think James was a “dick”..I think he was arrogant, coming from an extremely pampered background and into a school where he was well liked and good at things — he was just a snob…but remember he accepted and cared about people even if they were 1. from a family that was known for being obsessed with blood purity (the blacks) or 2. a werewolf ….he could not have been that awful..pompous jerk I will agree with though..
As readers we tend to draw ourselves to a character and see them as a specific way. Snape would not have cared about the rest of the wizarding world or really anybody if Voldemort hadn’t gone after Lily…that is why Snape isnt still a “good guy” but the fact that he did try at all chucks him away from bad guy status..
oh and I just noticed the Yankee comment — I am not going to say anything just — you sox fans really focus on 1 win…
August 14th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Is it just my compiter or is the forum down?
August 14th, 2007 at 4:33 pm
**computer.
August 14th, 2007 at 8:42 pm
I think there was a comment regarding Snape’s worst memory in the movie which is shown as James throwing Snape up in the air upside down (Levicorpus?) and how it was portrayed. The follow up comment was that all the memories in the pensieve were of Lily. Problematically for the movie, is that I believe Snape’s worst memory was NOT being thrown upside down in the air but was calling Lily a mudblood - for that was when Lily broke off their friendship. Hmmm…fix that one in Movie VII!!!
August 14th, 2007 at 8:57 pm
I didn’t see the movie– did he call her a Mudblood in the scene as well? Because in hindsight, that chapter is brilliant. Such a bait-and switch! I love it!
August 15th, 2007 at 12:38 am
Why did you not mention Grindlewald’s death. It was significant, but a little bit underdone. Next podcast if you can explain.
August 15th, 2007 at 8:14 am
I missed the lady that had Nagini inside her remains. I found that to be very nasty in a cool horror film kinda way. What a way to go!
August 15th, 2007 at 2:14 pm
Leslie,
At first blush, all of Snape’s Lily issues are problematic for the DH movie. However I believe they shot the worst memory scene, then cut it from the movie. In OoTP, Harry’s issue with the memory was that his dad was a big jerk, and really not much else. If they did shoot the whole scene, we might be able to see it in full at some point, maybe, in DH, where the actual worst part of the memory is important. The movie didn’t really concern itself with Harry’s angst about James, so why even bother with that. This memory for the films is really only important because of Lily in DH anyway, so I think it’s entirety became expendable to forward Harry’s journey.
The movies don’t spend too much time with forshadowing the other books or movies unless they do it accidentally (and sometimes very well, see Neville finding the Room of Requirement for the DA). I keep thinking they’ll just have Harry do Legilimency on Snape when he dies instead of the memory dump and the race to the Headmaster’s office. And maybe he’ll be alone instead of Ron and Hermione being with him. That would be a convenient way for him to go straight from Snape’s death to the forest. There doesn’t seem to be a big problem with switching orders of events in the movies, so I’m not really worried about it.
August 15th, 2007 at 2:15 pm
Aaron,
I agree. I also found there were several gory parts in this book that almost had it reading like a horror novel. It has also affected my rereading of the series. The horror of the snake makes everything seem nastier.
August 15th, 2007 at 3:15 pm
I’ve really enjoyed the podcasts and the discussions. I just want to jump in here about the memory scene in the movie. No, they didn’t show any of the part with Lily, but it was all very quick, and not much focused on later, really. I do think they must have shot the scene though, and hopefully it’ll be on the dvd.
I love the books more and enjoy the movies, though they always irritate me with the deleted portions. Reading DH, I kept thinking–oh, they’re going to regret leaving that bit out of the movies.
I suppose they could have Harry do Legilimency on Snape to get the memories, but it was so much more powerful that Snape willingly gave Harry the memories, and with such insistance that he take them. Hermione and Ron were with Harry in the Shrieking Shack when Snape was killed and gave Harry the memories–it was Hermione who conjured the flask to contain them.
When Harry saw the memories in Dumbledore’s Pensieve though, I think he was alone; they went back to the Great Hall, where they saw those who had died and been brought in. Hemione went to comfort Ginny, and Ron joined the rest of his family. Harry ran to Dumbledore’s old office with the flask of Snape’s memories, and then after seeing them, he runs into Neville and charges him with destroying Nagini, and he goes towards the Forest. The scene where Ron and Hermione are with him is after it’s all over and they are in the headmaster’s office, and Harry speaks to Dumbledore’s portrait about what happened with the Stone and what his intentions are.
My hope for the movies, now that we have the last book and the end of the story, is that the directors will realize that the movies need to be more than just children’s adventure stories–even at this late date they can include the personal journey that Harry makes that has nothing to do with Quidditch and action packed battles.
But I’m afraid they just won’t do justice to The Prince’s Tale or to The Forest Again and King’s Cross. So all the people who just watch the movies won’t get the full and important impact of the books, especially the last one, nor why all those deaths are so important.
August 15th, 2007 at 4:15 pm
I agree Eeyore, to me the most important chapters in the whole book, pivotal to everything at those three. I do sometimes wonder whether the directors actually read all the books or just the book/s they are going to be working on.
More importantly than the director is the screen writer, wouldn’t it be great to see JK write the script herself?
I think it is important that we see Snape give the memories to Harry rather than Harry get them through other means. As I have said above to me this was a important part in Snape’s role, he could’ve just died with Harry never knowing why he had done it or even that he had been loyal to DD. Anyway not going to start on that again.
August 15th, 2007 at 5:53 pm
THe entire time I was reading the book I kept thinking
oops that’s something they are going to have trouble explaining or wow they are going to cut that because they cut or change really cool parts.
But I just prepare myself in knowing the books are not as good as the movies and when I watch them I will get annoyed (as in Harry’s “I feel sorry for you” comment in movie 5 — what was that????)
in short Eeyore I agree with you!
August 15th, 2007 at 6:07 pm
What about the moral ambiguity of James Potter? He was cruel, self-centered, arrogant, etc. Obviously that was not his only defining feature. Obviously he matured. I wish Jo had developed James more so we could see him become a true Gryffindor.
Peter Pettigrew was good (better) in the company of Harry. He is a person whose morals are dependent on his company. He was good when he was a Marauder, a pet rat, etc. He is just a self-serving crumb when left alone or in the company of Death Eaters. Like so many Congressmen who are prone to Lobbyists, this guy is evil by apathy.
Is anyone else a bit heartbroken that Neville’s parents didn’t get any kind of a cure? I’m sure that Neville’s dottiness was a result of PTSD or a charm. My “disney” side wanted this to resolve for Neville.
Greasy haired, grey underpanted, shy, dark, Severus enjoys being the bully he never got to be in school. Now he’s a teacher. Tell me that none of you know a teacher who does this. It’s wrong, but it’s true.
Mizz Andy: Snape was capable of love. He could never be a death-eater because of that! Yes he has a redeeming quality, LOVE. He loved Harry, not for the eyes, but because he knew that Harry had his mom’s personality and kindness. Like Mrs. Figg, part of his cruelty was cover. He enjoyed it because of Harry’s resemblance to James.
Aaron: Yeah, half-rotted Bathilda must have been RANK!
Everyone: I want this shot in the final movie. Harry’s eyes meet Snape’s. Harry morphs into Lily who takes Severus’ hand and leads him onto the train in “Kings Cross”.
Everyone: Why on earth did the movie people cast John Clease then cut the Deathday Party. That is sheer stupidity!
August 15th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
I remember reading how some of the directors did only read their particular books. That inevitably leads to them missing something important, but the movies can never be as involved as the books. I never worry, though, that they have ruined a movie, mainly because JKR helps to keep some sort of continuity alive.
Also, I never look at a series of movies to give me the hidden meanings, or non-hidden meanings that are all over the books. You’ll notice we *never* get the boy gross-out humor in the movies. It’s all homogenized out. Thank goodness. Just wait, we won’t get the “doing up the zipper by hand” line either. These are the pieces we only get because we read the books.
On the other hand, we’re not getting children’s stories either. My niece was scared for the entirety of the Ministry of Magic scene, especially when Harry was being possessed, a la The Exorcist. That even freaked me out.
She was also scared during the Mermaid and Graveyard scenes in 4, and considers that one scarier than 5 (whatever). Even the first three have their moments. She still jumps when Harry touches the Hand of Glory in 2. That’s because I scare her every time, but it wouldn’t work if she wasn’t into the movie.
I can’t and refuse to worry about the movies. I have no control over how they turn out, but I’ve been very happy so far with them. I like each successive movie more than the last (save a bit in my heart for the first). I know the people working on the films are as involved as we are, so I trust them to give us an emotional journey. They’re not as obsessed as we are, but they do the manual labor, so in some ways they are more obsessed.
August 16th, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Great podcast — i’ve been a little behind!
Just saw the fifth movie (my husband took me for my birthday Monday), and it was the best by far. It surprised me, actually, how much foreshadowing made it in … but then, recent interviews have proven taht the actors know much more about their characters tahn we did.
Great job, you guys — keep it up!
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:14 pm
It seems that by the end you just winded out. So much discussion about Burbage’s death and so little about Voldemort’s! For instance, I was curious what your thoughts were on the way he died. I was glad the Harry didn’t use Avada Kedavra, but I speculated there’d be something else, something related to love. But regardless, I found it interesting that Voldemort never learned anything, and kept using the same spell that failed against Harry - not one, or twice, but thrice (at the start of Book 1, in the graveyard scene in Book 4, and in the forest just a few pages ago
). And the spell backfired the same way as in Book 1, though for different reasons and Voldemort didn’t have his Horcruxes anymore to hold him alive.
August 29th, 2007 at 12:48 pm
You have to watch this! I nearly cried!
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9vkOFM8hSj8&mode=related&search=
September 11th, 2007 at 10:47 am
your right that movie is very sweet.
(P.S. Penny i went to that website about hedwig and i must say it was pretty stupid.)