Episode #33: Wormtail
Everyone loves Wormtail! Wait, did I say everyone? I meant no one! Poor old Peter Pettigrew, he had no friends, he didn’t know what to do…what makes the Man Also Known as Scabbers tick? What will be for our forlorn ex-friend? Join us as we delve into what makes Wormtail tick, from his name, to his alter-ego, to his reincarnation abilities.
In the news:
- Warner Bros. launches new Dumbledore’s Army website.
- UK gets OotP movie one day early.
- JK Rowling comes out against spoilers.
- Scholastic asks the question: “Will Hogwarts reopen in Book 7?“
- JK Rowling contributes to aid in search for missing girl.
- Book 8?
You can listen to the podcast using the player below, or download an mp3 directly.
Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:16 am
I was thinking about the whole school reopening, and Ihope it does, I have a feeling that one of the biggest things that is going to aide Harry, at least in the beginning, is talking to Dumbledore’s Picture in the office. I still believe there are a few things that picture has to tell him…am i the only one who thinks that?
And im the first comment! YAY! …ahem…
May 17th, 2007 at 10:42 am
Is it Thursday.? Man I am all messed up.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:28 am
The comment about the prophecy and wormtail’s hand – one must die by the hand of the other” sounds to me a very real possibility there . . . it’s one of those double entendre/trick things that JK likes to do . . . Maybe Wormtail pulls a Gollem and kills the V by mistake. If there was a “harry lives” scenario, then, like LOR, the murder would have to be done by Wormtail in order to preserve Harry’s “innocence” (if harry kills someone, he’s gotta die – it’s one of those literary conventions of morality)
whaddayathink?
May 17th, 2007 at 11:35 am
tonk’s patronus turned into a wolf didn’t it – when she fell in love with lupin right?
May 17th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
What year was it at Hogwarts that Wormtail and friends became animagi? Why haven’t Harry and friends tried to do this?
May 17th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Just when i had convinced myself i was making headway in eliminating the news from the podcast- i find the news is now sponsored. Oh well can’t win them all.
Liked the wormtail/wormtongue connection, it’s very thoughtful.
The guessing that Pettigrew is a Gryffindor or not goes back to a essential debate of the operandi of the Sorting Hat. I am of the opinion that the Hat doesn’t have free choice- that it only reflects the desires and choices of the students, whether this is conscious or unconscious. So the house Pettigrew was in was entirely of his own choosing.
I figured Pettigrew was a Gryffindor but not for character reasons. I think a major reason was family lineage. There tends to be a family component to it- like the Weasleys. Maybe the Pettigrew’s have a history of being Gryffindors? The other thing I think is Pettigrew’s desire to surround himself with people who could protect him; the couragous Gryffindors, and the Maruaders in particular, seem the best choice to welcome him and protect him.
I think Pettigrew’s loyatly to Voldemort is pretty certain. He is affraid of V and always sucks up to those with power thinking it best be their friend not enemy. So he was loyal to the Order only so far as it could protect him from the Death Eaters. I suspect one of the first things Snape did as a spy for V within the Order was turn Wormtail over to the Dark Lord. Snape, i suspect, took pleasure in this as Pettigrew was always complicit to the Maruader’s antagonism against Snape.
aishel- if i recall Prisoner coreectly, Lupin said it took James and the other two four years after they learned Lupin is a Lycanthrope during their first year to become animagi. That puts it during their fifth year. I think the Trio didn’t pursue amimagi because of a lack of need. They don’t need to become animagi the Maruaders did- they had Lupin.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:01 am
Zeno’s paradox
There is more than one way to address Zeno’s paradox and it should be noted that Zeno is known for more than one paradox.
I like the perception/existential paradyme. This is to say that there is an archer and a target. The arrow traverses the distance between. Saying the arrow traverses half the distance between archer and target, and half of that distance, and half of that… is a measured designation of the eye. We say the arrow must travel half way before travelling the second half, but for the arrow this isn’t so- the arrow simply travels forward. Therefore the arrows moves.
This is true to experiment. Should you concern yourself with how far you have progressed to an as yet completed journey, you hinder your journey overall. On the other hand if you concern yourself with progressing forward, you get there.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:03 am
shoot i mean incomplete journey. my summary is ruined.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:30 pm
I still don’t get what Xena has to do with Harry Potter but have always liked the outfits her and Gabriel wear. I suppose both shows do have magic in common.
May 18th, 2007 at 2:38 pm
“Tea and strumpets”, ha ha ha ha! Please tell us that was a joke, Greg.
May 18th, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Amanda- I don’t know if Harry has to talk to DD’s portrait, but I do think there will be things at Hogwarts that Harry will need to do in order to complete his mission. Hogwarts is too much an important part of the wizarding world for it not to play a part in the book.
Vince- I just don’t see Wormtail killing V (although Greg would probably disagree with me). I don’t think JKR would want to give that much Wormtail. Thanks for the patronus info.
Aishel- My guess is that Harry et al. would need the “smartest witch of their year” to figure out how to turn into animagi and Hermione wouldn’t stand for something so blatantly illegal.
I am ignoring the whole Zeno’s Paradox thing.
PrestoJeff- it is a “Dumb and Dumber” line!
May 18th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
There are a lot of people who are like, “I’d give my right hand for you.”
Now, this is usually figurative, but in Wormtail’s case, it’s literal. He actually gave his right hand to ressurect Voldemort.
And, I believe he was is Gryffindor because he was loyal and remains loyal. He is just loyal to Voldmeort instead of his old friends.
On a different note, book 7 will end with the word “scar”
May 18th, 2007 at 8:50 pm
Aaron, – Nice one . . .
Penny – yes you should ignore this.
May 18th, 2007 at 8:56 pm
I figured the symbology of the right hand meant Wormtail was Voldi’s right hand man as well. He is a dirty annoying rat that gets a thrill out of just being included in anything. There is no honor in him whatsoever he is just out for #1. I felt that he was at Spinners end for just 2 reasons. One would simply be he is just to annoying to have around while the other would be to watch Snape. The discussion we had about Snape playing both sides until forced to choose one, I believe fits Wormtail much better. I have also thought Voldemort is very much aware that Snape is against him. Even if he is not , Voldemort is not the type of fellow to trust anyone so why not house two narks together. They would tell on each other at the first opportunity. Actually a pretty smart move on V’s part.
May 18th, 2007 at 9:01 pm
Sorry I forgot to say unless this life debt thing to Harry has the same mortal repecussions as say the unbreakable vow. It doesn’t exist. Wormtail got away. Playing on the merci of a young Harry to do it just makes him successful at being a worm. No unless I missed something this life debt is a red herring that will not play any part in the last book except in a way Harry will not give him the chance to get away again.
May 19th, 2007 at 4:09 am
If I may be permitted another Lord of the Rings reference… Peter also reminds me of Gollum, in that Bilbo’s mercy meant that that Gollum survived to play an integral part later on. Similarly, I think Harry’s mercy means that Peter will end up being important later. Like others have suggested, while I don’t believe he will change sides completely, I think he may end up doing something that will aid Harry, either intentionally or unintentionally.
I believe that the Sorting Hat sees someone’s potential. For example, not every Gryffindor is going to go down in history for doing something extraordinarily brave, but they have that potential. Peter has that potential. Like someone else said, Peter is loyal to Voldemort, so he still has that quality, just misguided. When Voldemort was weak, he didn’t pose much of a threat to Peter, but Peter chose to help restore him to his full strength anyway. One could argue that he is loyal, self-sacrificing and does some brave things – but for Voldemort.
Or maybe Peter was like Harry at the sorting… on the border between Slytherin and Gryffindor. Of course the hat is not going to predict the future, so its just going to go with the person’s current potential and tendencies. Doasis mentioned that the sorting hat may reflect desires of the students… I think the desires have an influence, insomuch as the fact that who you *want* to be is going to guide who you become.
Anyway, this was my first comment as I just finished listening to all the podcasts up til now… I have really enjoyed them, so thanks!
May 19th, 2007 at 3:27 pm
First- congratulations on getting your first sponser! May this be the first step on a path to greater recognition and listener-ship.
Second- I do firmly believe that Pettigrew was in Gryffindor (as many probably do as well), if only because I seriously doubt that James and Sirius would have befriended any Slytherin at all, no matter how obsequious. I think Doasis’s explanation of the Hat’s methods is extremely insightful, and really dovetails quite nicely with the “You are as you choose to be” theme. I don’t know how or when this would ever be confirmed, but I like the idea a lot. After all, very few people are aware of their full potential at eleven, but they are starting to recognize qualities that are most important to them, and the Sorting Hat ‘deciding’ it would lend much more weight to their own hopes. It may not be as cut and dry as all this, as the Hat certainly seemed to intend on putting Harry in Slytherin- Harry just over-rode him. It’s probably something of a give-and-take situation. For instance, was Malfoy destined to be a Slytherin because his family was, or because he had already chosen his House?
Um… back to Wormtail. I think his working for Snape was couched as a “reward” by Voldemort (as Voldemort doesn’t particularly want him nearby, with the debt and all, but probably is hanging on to him for some reason.) Wormtail would be working with the right-hand man, blah blah blah. What does Wormtail say about their arrangement to Snape in “Spinner’s End”?
One more thing. If you guys end up doing a Patterns in Potter episode (which I think we would love, and yes, we should go read it, but it’s really interesting to hear as well!) maybe you could divide it up into 3 podcasts of two books, so it’s not six weeks of it in a row. Just a suggestion!
May 19th, 2007 at 6:21 pm
yeah so i actually have time to comment…so if voldemort split his soul in halfs he couldnt get 7 you would have 1/2,1/4,1/8,1/16 ect, or since he knew he wanted to have 7 parts he would have to 1/7 th his soul from the begining, but then he would have 6/7 left and 1/7 of 6/7 is 6/49, and not 1/7 he would either have unqual soul pieces of instead of dividing his soul, just subtract it …does that make sence?
but when voldemort actually got down to the time he died and alll his hororuxes were gone wouldnt he be so afraid of dying he would become a ghost?
zeno’s paradox: my theory is that you halve so much that you get down to atoms, and we dont touch atoms anyway, because of something than some science teacher explained…i should have paid attention
and i
May 19th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
it defenately cut off the end of my last comment so all i wanted to say was i
May 19th, 2007 at 6:29 pm
…love calvin and hobbes ok its getting annoying if it doesnt work this time no one will ever know
May 19th, 2007 at 6:41 pm
Ok now this I can really sink my teeth into! It would seem a common consensus that Peter Pedigrew is a Griffendore. So let it be written, so let it be done! Becky I really like the idea of the sorting hat basing it’s decisions on potential. I’m not sure that was mentioned in episode 22 or not. The potential to be is what really counts. I think the potential to be can define a person early on then to see what choices are made and what paths are followed t develope this actually just becomes our identity. Michal your coments made me think about a couple things. Mainly on the character names. In this podcast Greg and Penny seem to go off on a humorous tangent when speaking about how wormtail can be compared with Miss wormwood and a few more examples. There is a certainty to me that the name chosen is a definite tool for the author to use to define him/her to the readers. In trying to not only analyze the book I am attempting to see how the authors writing style plays into it as well. Wormtail is a rat. I see no redemptive qualities being expressed in either. As for the life debt I can see Voldemorte owing much more to Pettigrew than Pettigrew would ever consider himself oweing to Harry. I keep looking for a reference to a life debt in the books but have come up empty.
I would like to agree with you in reference to doasis’s comments being helpful. Although I’m sure I frustrate and annoy her she has peaked my intrest in these topics with her clever well thought out prognications and given information that I would not have considered otherwise. The explaination of the paradox above being a fine example. If I could just get her to watch Fox News.
May 19th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
The sorting is definitely based on potential – Sirius is a testament to that. In book 5 and 6 it explains that although Sirius’ family all the way from the beginning were all dark wizards and all Slytherin, the sorting hat thought otherwise …
I think the “life debt” thing is from a line in the Azkaban movie, not from the book . . .
Aaron – you may want to avoid Fox news, it is rather hazardous to your brain although the level of irony present could have it construed as a very bad english mockumentary…unfortunately not as humorous as “the Office” but it does have it’s moments …
May 19th, 2007 at 10:37 pm
I’d just like to add: Peter only gave his right hand because, if he didn’t Voldie would have zapped him on the spot (or eventually…). But Peter knows life with Voldie is no fun, so imagine Voldie is down, and Harry is about to win…and only Wormtail is there to help Voldie…and Wormtail thinks to himself…I can help Voldie or I can help Harry, and has to make a split second decision (and there’s no way his decision could end up being wrong…meaning, if he chooses Harry, there’s no way Voldie somehow wins), who do you think he will choose? Someone who has shown him mercy in the past, or someone who continually asks for him to sacrifice on his behalf. Hands down: Harry Potter.
The life debt line is at the end of Book 3, I’m almost positive. I think I may have even quoted it over on the old HPProgs Pettigrew post, but I’m way to lazy to actually go and check.
May 20th, 2007 at 12:17 am
Greg, if Peter is “gollum” then that kinda debunks your harry dies theory but on the other hand, it makes for a nice evolution of it and I reckon there still is the possibility that both H and V gotta go at the end . . . more poetic but may not rub well with the kiddies . . .
The “No more Harry Potter therapy” hotline will be off the hook . . . litterally . . .
If Peter does have a choice, I think if he thought it out, he’d go with V because with Harry, while Harry may not kill him, he is certainly not going to forgive and forget about him droppin’ dime on his parents and getting them fried . . . but you may be right here as it would tie it up in a nice fable-like resolution complete with remorse and consequence.
May 20th, 2007 at 5:08 am
Oh and as for Mr. Z’s Paradox- it just goes to show, you shouldn’t do things by halfs!
I wonder if anyone ever gets all the way across the Ravenclaw common room…
May 21st, 2007 at 1:01 am
Ok I just spent another wonderful 12 hours working and some time in the middle of the night it dawned on me. The Zeno Paradox thing is how we control the speed of the train when making a reverse movement. A conductor with a radio has the rear view and lets me know how many cars room I have to move backwards. This count is given by 1/2 plus one until complete. All night long I listen to 10-6-4-3-2-1-25feet-15-10-5-3-2-1-stop. So I do eventually get there as long as the movement is constant it just slows down until all points meet infinitum. I thought that was kinda neat and it always ends with a contolled(hopefully) crash. Now what that has to do with Harry Potter? I dunno? Kinda makes me want Quidditch games to have cheerleaders.
May 21st, 2007 at 1:28 am
Oh I forgot in my mind I have already written book 7. I’m just waiting to see if J.K. Rowling and I think alike. Probably not as we have nothing in common but our age but Wormtail gets eaten by Crookshanks.
May 21st, 2007 at 8:47 am
by the way, do you have any spare jobs lying around? I need something to do… I have time to burn…
I can’t do anything technorati, but I can transcribe the shows…
If I could take the job, please e-mail me! Thanks!
May 21st, 2007 at 9:07 am
I said that based on JK when she said that ‘Dumbledore was being difficult’ when she was talking about her progress in writing the book. When asked “well isnt Dumbledore dead?” she responded “yes, but its not quite that simple.”
May 21st, 2007 at 9:34 am
I use Z’s paradox to decelerate an object and ease it into place when scripting, but I still think it’s a reach to relate it to harry and his search – he’s not really checking progress, he tends to fly by the seat of his pants that are inevitably dragged about …
vince
May 21st, 2007 at 7:12 pm
OKAY, this has gotten way out of hand. While the entire Zeno’s Paradox is fun to waste time with, and it kind of sort of, if you squint your eyes and tilt your head to the side relates to my theory, I think it only fair if I clarify the original theory taht brought about all this madness.
I don’t care about the math, I don’t think that Harry will care about the math. All I do know, and this is canon, is that when you murder someone your soul is torn in half. That means that the first horcrux would have held one half of V’s soul, making it a darn dangerous and powerful object. Since there is less soul left, and V (again, CANON, if oyu want to argue with this, go talk to JK) loses 1/2 of his soul every murder, it only stands to reason that each horcrux will have less soul in it than the the prior, possibly making it easier to reach and destroy. My theory remains that Dumbledore, not being a dummy (I mean seriously, does voldemort have three and a half souls? Come on!), would stumble onto that, and remove the biggest threat to Harry’s success … the most powerful of the horcruxes left.
Again, let me reiterate that I don’t think that Harry will sit down with a TI-85 (or whatever you kids are using these days), a theoritical math book, and some dried doxy droppings and equate how much soul V has left (because it certainly isn’t 1/7th, he’s killed WAY too many people than that!!) but I do think that he will have an easier time finding and destroying the horcruxes as he goes along, due to this theory. I certainly am no genius, and to be quite frank, was fairly impetuous in my drafting of this theory, but I think it holds credence. Does Voldemort have three and a half souls? No. Anyone can tell you that. Does killing someone rip your soul in half? Yes. If you disagree, go talk to Jo, it’s her canon. The murderer doesn’t have any control over how much soul he loses, he just takes advantage of hte mutilation. Does that mean that each horcrux can NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES have the same amount of soul in it? Yes, unless somehow V has three and a half souls, which since he’s not a quadruplet isn’t an option.
Does that clarify things? Enjoy the podcast … it was really fun to hear my theory discussed, even if you forgot who I was, hah!
May 21st, 2007 at 8:35 pm
elizabeth: its a good theroy, but do you split you soul every time you kill some one, or just when you make a horacrux? i personally think that it is the latter.
i was just wondering about life debts, is it have to be paid back the first opportunity, you get, or what happens if you just say ill do it later?
May 21st, 2007 at 8:37 pm
Well Ok ! I am just wild about the idea of Harry using Doxy droppings as a weapon. A kind of biological warfare. Pretty awsome Elizabeth and a thught I never would of considered important until now. Bitten by a Doxy with no antedote is a pretty bad way to go I’m sure. Bitten by 500 Doxy’s is even cooler.
May 22nd, 2007 at 11:14 am
Sarah — According to canon, every single time you murder someone your soul is ripped in half. You have no control over it, it’s a universal punishment for committing the most greivous sin possible. It just happens, the only prevention is to not kill the guy! Remember in HBP, when Sluggy is explaining it, he says that really evil wizards take advantage of the tear and encase the torn part in a horcrux.
Anyway, it would make no sense to have such a universal punishment only when it’s beneficial. As it’s been pointed out (I think on Pottercast, forgive me!!), JKR majored in Classical studies and draws a TON from greek and roman mythology. Universal Justice (that is to say that deeds left unpunished of the father will fall to the son, usw) is a key component in mythology, and we can infer from what we’ve learned so far that it plays such an integral role here as well.
Which brings me to your question on life debts … I think (IMO) that it would take something pretty big to absolve the debt, I just don’t see, oh, let me push you out of the way of that jellylegs curse would count. And I bet it’s a universal justice thing as well. I think that since Snape didn’t resolve his lifedebt to James (for whatever reason we don’t yet know) his debt now falls to Harry. Dangit, I just don’t want to like Snape, but I can’t get away from teh fact that he’s goign to turn out good!
Aaron — I hope you’re kidding about the doxy droppings! I was referring to the brain stimulants that Harry nearly took in prep of his OWLS … remember in Book five, when he nearly bought powdered dragon something and it was really dried doxy droppings?
E
May 22nd, 2007 at 12:44 pm
Elizabeth- Thank you so much for stepping forward to let us know it was your theory. It was a great one and fret not, you will get a shout out in the next episode!
May 22nd, 2007 at 4:26 pm
thanks elizabeth:)
May 22nd, 2007 at 6:07 pm
JK Rowling NEVER said that the prophesy had to come true. It’s entirely true that Peter Pettigrew could become the killer of Voldemort.
Prophesies are not absolute. They are simply visions of what may be. JKR deals with the absolute truth of Love and not the prognostications of a seer. The prophesy is a huge red herring.
I think that there are definite parallels between Kreacher and Peter Pettigrew. Both are severely underestimated by those around them.
Becky- I agree that the Lord of the Rings reference is important. Also remember how Dumbledore said that sparing Peter Pettigrew’s life was crucial. Voldemort has a servant who is in Harry’s debt.
May 22nd, 2007 at 6:41 pm
the prophecy is too big to be a red herring, suzanne , your theory may be right, but i think it is more likely that harry will kill V, because of what V did to his friends/ family, wormtail only has to save , harry’s life one, not nessisarily kill V, i dont think there is enough evidence on your theory, but i may have missed some info that you got your theory on, and props to the kreacher/ wormtail comment
on a similar not i dont think that V know that wormtail has a life debt to harry, if he did, he probley would have taken mor procautions around/about wormtail
May 22nd, 2007 at 7:35 pm
May 25th, 2007 at 1:01 pm
I can’t believe no one has posted about how Wormwood is a C.S. Lewis reference! In fact, apparently the author of Calvin and Hobbes took the name from The Screwtape Letters, which C.S. Lewis wrote. The premise of the books is that there is a demon who is teaching a younger, junior demon how to do his job. The book is letters from the sr. to the jr. demon and the jr. demon’s name is Wormwood. It’s meant to give us insight in how to resist the devil’s schemes, to see how he deceives us and tries to keep us from hearing what God would want us to do.
I agree, Wormtongue was what I thought of, too, it’s more of a close identification than the Wormwood reference, but since you mentioned Wormwood I had to chime in.
Really good topics lately on your podcast, I especially enjoyed the Horcrux one.
May 26th, 2007 at 11:18 pm
i just started listening and the podcast is wonderful. i just wanted to point out two things.
1) tonks potronus has changes! snape pointed that out after he saw it, and we are given the impression that it might be a ware-wolf, if that is true then a prtronus would be something or someone you feel strongly about.
2) Voldemort made the dairy first (or at least close to first) it was made when he was still is school between 5 and 7 year.
3)the spiritual significange of harry potronus is that of the Guide. it is also present it the king arther myths. the Great Beast, a white stag, appeared many times on their quest and lead them in the right direction. in celtic mythology the white stag also lead heros into the Otherworld where the fae and the dead ‘live’
keep up the work i love listening to your ideas
May 27th, 2007 at 1:25 am
Elizabeth: your theory is interesting, and you are correct using the concept of universal punishment. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think what cannon actually says is every time you kill you SPLIT your soul not HALF your soul. Think of it like a piece of paper. Unless up fold it and slowly rip at the fold there is no way to get to exactly even pieces. You just rip off a piece, some are small and some are large and yes some are the same size (though that is rare). I think you are correct is assuming that the murder has no control over how the soul is ripped, and it does happen every time you kill with out exception.
Also, it is safe to assume that Voldemort did not kill ONLY to make a horcrux. While Voldemort may have made a horcrux from his first kill, I don’t think it likely. His soul would have been fractured already, or if he made a horcrux from the first he absolutely did have kills in between that didn’t become horcruxes leaving what little soul he had/has left with many fractures. Therefore going by your theory of HALVING at each kill that would be (known kills personally by Voldemort: Myrtle, His Father, Grandfather, Grandmother, the old woman who owned Hufflepuff’s cup, James and Lily, the old man at Riddle house, and Bertha) 9 pieces at the very least. There are only 6 (or 7 if you ascribe to the ‘he made Harry an accentually horcrux at Godric’s hollow’ theory) Horcruxes.
I would love to hear responses or other theories; it’s so hard to find people who will debate HP theory with any real knowledge higher than the “Snape’s just evil so there” level. Sadly I am writing a thesis (on ancient Greek religion and mythology) and do a very poor job of keeping up with threads like this. But if you’re interested I will respond to e-mail a PhoenisDragonSphinx@yahoo.com
May 27th, 2007 at 1:28 am
Sorry I know that people hate it when the same person posts several times in a row, but I just realised that I typed my e-mail wrong… it Phoenix not Phoenis. Sorry.
March 15th, 2008 at 9:45 am
I realise that this is extremely outdated, but while listening to this episode for the first time, I stumbled across one of my own theories.
Maybe, (concerning your birdwalk, I haven’t listened to the soul episode yet) when Voldemort decided to split his soul, that the original soul was so weak that the love barrier was enough to ricochet it back to him? It seems like if you cut your soul in half, then half of that (which is what I think it ends up doin) then 1/128 of a soul isn’t going to be much to really hold any power whatsoever. I think the main reason he was around so long without being destroyed was that everyone was mainly fearing him, not trying to get rid of him. If you saw some Mafia guy with a gun to your forehead, you’d be more scared than trying to be brave and kill him yourself.
Yeah, just my two cents.
<3