Episode #30: Occlumens and Legilimency
I know what you’re thinking…you want a podcast delving into the subject of…Occlumency and Legilimency! Your wish is granted (we always try to anticipate your needs…). This week, we explore the meaning of the mind in the HP books with a closer look at the inner workings of the wizarding psyche. We know you’ll like it!
Also, tune in to hear the winners of the “So You Think Our Accents are Rubbish?!?” contenst!
In the news:
- The last twenty minutes of OoTP will shown in 3-D on Imax
- Trailer for the OoTP video game looks amazing
- WB’s official OoTP site launching this week: Will be called “Dumbledore’s Army”
- The MS Society of Scotland is auctioning off a JKR signed Philosopher’s Stone Poster
- JK Rowling has won Wired Magazine’s 2007 Rave Award for Business
- Bloomsbury pumping up security big time
You can listen to the podcast using the player below, or download an mp3 directly.
April 26th, 2007 at 5:00 pm
Wicked! I knew you, Greg and Penny, would be the really unpack this type of magic but i must say, i think you knocked this one out of the park. It exceeded my expectations. Really well done. (except for the first 12 minutes- that’s forgetable).
I am not even sure what to add at this point except that I don’t see Harry ever mastering occlumency. He is so driven by his emotions and it’s his emotions that protected him from Voldemort possessing him. I feel it’s his inability to compartmentalize his feelings, like Draco, that lead him to end things with Ginny- it truely protects her and him.
My handle is ponounced (doe-asis). Its one syllable. And my gender and idenity are my own- so call me “it”. (Really the only reasons gender matters are (A) referring in the third person (B) Physical intimacy. Seen that way it doesn’t matter, i am ok with being called “it” and this is an all audience site.)
Andrew’s American is bostonian but also a little Bill Clintonesque. Jason’s was a bit southern but not a Carolinian to my ear- Tennesse maybe.
If I may be so bold to suggest another topic: how about Minerva McGonagall. She is now Headmistress but is Hogwarts even open for students? Is she also Dumbledore’s second in the Order? According to the HP-Lexicon, Minerva was two years ahead of Tom Riddle in schooling- Does she know something relevant about the boy who becomes Voldemort? Why is she the only REGISTERED animagus? It is advantageous to keep animal shiting a secret but she didn’t. In Stone she is leary of Hagrid retrivieving the baby Harry but in Prince she asks Hagrid for advice regarding Dumbledore’s resting place. Is this shift in her attitude important to the future of Hogwarts? Its just a suggestion.
April 26th, 2007 at 6:14 pm
Great episode, guys (though unfortunately most all of the references went over my head!) I was on the bus when I heard the contest results, and while I did restrain myself from laughing outright, I’m afraid that the resulting expression may have worried the woman next to me. I have to say though, the accents were really quite good. Is it my imagination, or do Brits’ voices pitch deeper when they’re trying an American accent?
I really agree with Penny via Snape never actually instructing Harry on how to go about closing his mind. That occurred to me on the first reading, and it bothered me more and more as it became abundantly clear that Harry possessed no natural talent for the method at all. I suppose tossing someone into a pool is one way of teaching them to swim, but if they keep drowning, come on- you have to improvise a little!
I liked your discussion of Harry’s nature preventing him from performing effective occlumancy as well. I think it ties in with your point that Harry is going to have to combine qualities of the four Houses to succeed in his fight against Voldemort. It was also an interesting turn in the plot, as Harry’s burgeoning excellence in DADA is in the forefront of Order. That Harry can very easily fail at a Defense-related subject speaks volumes about Harry, Snape and the overall situation. Similarly, I wondered why, in HBP, Dumbledore seems to accept Harry’s ineptitude at occlumency as something that was not going to change. “You were never a good occlumens,” I believe he says, which is an interesting position to take even if Harry does not technically need occlumency anymore.
As for Lupin, I’d love to see him in nearly any capacity as he is a favorite of mine. McGonagall is as well. Maybe she would fit into a “Rules vs. Rule-breaking” podcast? It’s a theme that comes up consistently in every book, and as a rule-follower myself, it’s always made me think.
April 26th, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Guys - you could have given me a heads-up before the show!
Penny’s dead-on with her comments on Rs. The funniest word for me is “squirrel”.
Am I now allowed to give Greg grief about his accent again?
- Andrew
April 26th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Yep I have hit bottom. I agree with doasis. I can’t bring myself to call her it though. I cannot believe that you don’t think there has been physical intamcy here as much as you have subjected me to your mental mind (sensored very bad word and Rocky Horror quote) I will just have to keep the hope that someday we will have that dream date to DisneyLand.
Michal I’m 6 foot 4 and it was over my head to. I still liked it though. Congrats Andrew you can let go of your nose and breath again! Look forward to your contribution to the podcast.
April 26th, 2007 at 7:26 pm
I’m sorry doasis, Were you saying Minerva needs new kitty litter in your last paragraph?
April 26th, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Aaron, I HATE DISNEY!
Your dream date is my seventh level of hell. Can’t we just be blogmates?
A Rules versus Rule-breaking is a great idea Michal!
Andrew can insult anything he wants. Although if he’s a guest- he should pick the topic that week.
April 26th, 2007 at 10:14 pm
“My handle is ponounced (doe-asis). Its one syllable.”
I am having a hard time with the one syllable thing- do you mean that the
asis” is one syllable and your handle is pronounced like the word Moses? Please elaborate.
Continue on, all. I’ll check back in tommorow (and will obviously feel stupid if there are no other comments after this one).
April 27th, 2007 at 7:05 am
I just started listening to your show and its definitely one of the best podcast in my opinion. I love every episodes, especially this one coz Occlumens and Legilimency is a really interesting topic that no one has really discussed about.
i’ll definitely be looking forward for the next episode~ well keep up your great show
April 27th, 2007 at 10:39 am
I had a question as to wether the occclumsy and the legitamatcy thing was so important because it can be used to forwarn you of an enemys attack. Like when Voldemort and Snape easily block Harry’s spells (although that could be just experience vs youth) Or it may be needed to avoid posscession as when Voldemorte invaded Harry in the battle in OOTP. Maybe both? I have seen little use of it other than Snape’s ability to tell if someone is lying. I dunno it seems to be yet another vague subject. Doasis I am happy to be your blogmate. Guess you didn’t notice my earlier post seranading you with disney songs.
April 27th, 2007 at 11:43 am
now greg stick to the australian accent, that was awesome.
April 27th, 2007 at 12:08 pm
Penny- Yes “doasis” is pronounced similarly to “Moses”. I realized i mistyped “one syllable’ after it was posted but its not (doe-a-sis).
Aaron- no i only read about one third of your posts. The ones that are articulate and sensical. And your talking about V and S blocking spells is exactly the kind of skyhook that annoys me. Voldemort never blocks an attack that i am aware of. Snape block Harry’s by seeing his lips move. Snape likens this shortcomming to Harrys lack of occlumency skill. Greg and Penny accurately point out they are related strengths of subversion.
Now here i have a question. In the podcast you talk about Descartes’ skepticism/ paranoia about his perceptions decieving him. you suggest Voldmort is an embodiment of that notion. You go on to say V is using legilimency to envoke emotional curiosity regarding the Dept of Prophecy. Harry’s curiosity is more emotional than rational, making V’s legilimency easier- it reinforces itself. Am i making a leap to far thinking there is a logos/pathos dialectic at work here? Are you suggesting this of Harry’s curiosity, Descartes’ Cognito, both, or niether?
I agree that killing Dumbledore puts Snape in a bad place no matter the possible strategy behind the move. But i think the real pardox for Snape is it makes Snape choose a side. Up to that point-where he kills D- Snape was placed in the middle and no matter who wins Snape would benefit. That is no longer the case. Snape looks like he choose a side and now he has to choose a side.
If there is a way Snape is proven to have followed D’s order, that is was a type of fratricide, he can be redeamed only if V is defeated. If V wins he will in time be descovered a double agent and killed. It is a tough place to be in, in the short term he’s rooting for V but in the long he has to root against. Bellatrix isn’t yet convinced and wont be until she is uniquivically V’s #1. That means she has to discredit Snape.
In short having to chose a side is the one thing he didn’t want to do- he liked the reverence that came by being *needed* by both sides.
April 27th, 2007 at 4:29 pm
First of all, I’d like to take this opportunity to formally apologize to Andrew for not letting him know of the contest results before we put the episode up. When Greg saw his comment, he turned to me and said, “You didn’t let him know beforehand?!?” and I said, “Was I supposed to?” and Greg answered, “No, but you should have!”. So I was sufficiently put in my place- more by Andrew than Greg because technically I didn’t do anything wrong where he is concerned …:)
In any event, Andrew, I do believe that on the episode you join us for you will have Cart Blanche access to mock Greg so enjoy!! But just know that I will be making you say the word, Squirrel. (I am guessing that Quirrel is hard as well?)
Ashley- welcome. Thanks for your comments, we look forward to hearing more from you!
Aaron and Doasis- am I going to have to separate you two? Doasis- Greg will hopefully respond to you re: Descartes and all that because I am not intellectually able to do that (even though I am smarter than Greg is- and THAT should get him commenting here.)
By the way, love all the suggestions for future episodes. They are all giving me good food for thought.
April 27th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Doasis- that’s a very good point about Snape choosing a side. Although I do think that in his own mind he was probably allied to the Order (or Dumbledore, at any rate), it was clearly very important to him that no one else should be definitively aware of his true alliance- he even seemed resentful that Dumbledore should know so much of his mind. Snape seems to value his privacy enormously, perhaps this is why he is so skilled at occlumency and why he still holds such a grudge against James, Sirius and Lupin. For him, their abuse was not ’simple’ bullying, but a violation of his privacy. The strongest reactions we see from Snape (as I remember) usually concern James or Sirius, and the most extreme of these is when he finds Harry in the memory of his weakness.
In this vein, I wonder whether Snape is all that concerned about his own “redemption.” He does not want the Wizarding World to know his motives. This is a stretch, but I wonder if Snape would ultimately prefer to be misunderstood (and perhaps pay the ultimate price) than for his plan to be known and to be celebrated as a hero for his role.
April 27th, 2007 at 7:32 pm
Michal you’re getting there. Snapes worst memory is being hung upside-down revealing his pale legs and greying underpants. (I’ve left HP forums over discusions of what kind of underwear-that’s disgusting so everyone beware) His worst memory is exposure. His privacy, his armor, it’s all the same to him and he covets it most of all.
He scorns pity so he would rather be misunderstood and his role as double agent was the exact opposite of pity. He will morn it. I think if he had his way he will continue to play in the middle until page 784 of last book. I don’t think he has chosen a side at the end of Prince but will have to IN Deathly.
I also don’t think his scorn of Harry isn’t just because of the Mauraders but because Harry garnered the fame for vanquishing Voldemort. If Snape can gain fame for his role only then will he let the truth be known. Having his roll told third hand, like by Rita Skeeter, would kill him. That would garner Pity not Fame.
April 27th, 2007 at 8:10 pm
Ok doasis I took a nap just for you. In regards to your question I believe that Descartes’ skepticism/ paranoia is an excellent way to compare what Harry is experiencing. Not in as much that Voldemorte is his demon that is using a distorted or false reality to deceive him but is in fact part of the delusion itself designed to ensnare his judgement. The visions and dreams Harry has along with the physical pain experienced from his scar all are tools that were used to make him become a predictable marionette with Voldemorte pulling the strings and unwiittingly aiding his protagonist. To make a simple comparison, I liken it to how Emperor Palepatine in StarWars used not just emotions but very specific ones such as hate,fear and anger to bend people to do his bidding. Sorry to throw another skyhook at you but I felt that the comparison between Occlumency and Jedi mind tricks were close enough to show my point for those unfamilar with 17th century philosphy.
I believe we already discussed and disagreed about Snape so I will not revisit that subject, I am greatly impressed that you actually read about 1/3 of what I write. I only wish I could get my children to listen that well. I do feel that being articulate and sensical is quite overated and part of the brainwashing our modern academia have so sucessfully imposed on our youth. (Another good example of our subject.)The most close minded people I have ever experienced are the ones reviewing the final thesis for advanced education. All that I am saying is do not be so quick to discount nonsense because the most profound truths are more often than not found in the simplest of things.
April 27th, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Oh yeah I was singing It’s a small world after all really loud!
April 27th, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Voldemort is part of a greater delusion is probably how Descartes would see it but I am not sure i would. Ok yes Harry is reevaluating his initial impressions of the Wizarding world that has turned on him and the Ministry that is betraying him. But i separate impressions from perceptions. the naturalistic skills of observation and measurement are important tools to conceive the world not just perceive it. Impressions are purely perceptions and tendedly rudimentary ones. Harry is learning to convieve his world more fully in Order. He can’t take what people think of his fame as good- but he never did anyway. He never really understood it. This is a matter of abandoning an assumption- not a conspiracy of a demon.
The ministry betrayed him from Prisoner to Order and he has to reconcile this. he must perceive their motives not just the ministries actions. In doing so he sees the Ministry is consitent (Loyal to stability) and why he cannot condone their actions in Prince. He can preceive their truths because he knows it conceptually. That isn’t so in Prisoner and he learns it Order. Again this isn’t a demon conspirator but the inherit evil of government.
Voldemort is opperating like Palpatine but impressions work opposite here. Harry’s impression is V is evil and what ever he wants Harry has to get it first to stop him. Like with the Philosopher’s stone. This impression plays into V in Order. In those awful STARWARS Anakin’s impressions that Palpatine is ok work him into a self fulfilling prophecy, sure. But in the movies that matter. Luke’s impression that Vader and the Emperor are evil allow him to anticipate their motives and fight against it.
April 27th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Yes I think you are on the mark there. I see Harry’s perception of Voldemort as evil being his greatest strength in resisting the temptations of power and such as offered to him from the dark lord. With the minestry and the media using his unsolicited fame as a tool to discredit him in the wizarding world, I believe that it is that alone that keeps him from doing what is easy and joining Voldemort as so many others have done. I do think that Voldemorts overconfidence and concieit caused him to make an error. By using these skills on Harry he has given him information that would not have otherwise been known. How much of this can be attributed to Voldemorts plans or to a true connection between them I am not sure. Dumbledores reluctance to include him with sensative information in OOTP makes me think that once Voldemort discoverd this connection that most of the dreams and twinges were of intentional design. Why then the change in HBP? Harry’s skills in Legilimency have not improved as far as I can tell. Is it just time is running out and Dumbledore had no choice but to play his cards? I can’t see the Big D being that reckless. Although if you end up being correct about Snape this would make sense. I still think Snape is a tool of the good side and that Voldemort knows this. The complexity of a Snape that is good just seems to be the way this is heading. Maybe I’m just taking Yoda’s advice and trusting my feelings.
April 27th, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Hey all
I really enjoyed the podcast- and I loved the whole philosophical slant Greg spun on the Occlumency/Legilimency topic with Descartes’ “Meditations”- My background is not philosophy or classics-based but I think I want to check it out for my own information- so thank you!! I don’t have much to add to the discussion on this week’s topic except to say that I think it will be very interesting to see if Harry will have a more promising career as a Legilimens as Voldemort has apparently felt it necessary to employ occlumency against Harry after the battle in the ministry (according to Dumbledore’s conclusions at the beginning of Half-Blood Prince). Harry’s scar acts as a magical conduit which connects him quite intimately with Voldemort and I believe it to be one of those “deadly weapons” Dumbledore refers to that Voldemort has inadvertently handed to Harry that he will have to learn to manipulate even though it is the last thing he will want to do.
I also had a couple of suggestions for future shows- I would love to hear a show about the group dynamics of the original Marauder’s and their place within Hogwarts and how that is similar to and differs to Harry’s inner circle. Is JKR trying to tell us something with all the fact that the Marauders have been dropping like flies- what does this mean for Lupin and Pettigrew? Another show I would love to hear (which has been mentioned here on the blog before) is a show on Dumbledore. We talked a couple blogs ago about Dumbledore being the moral compass of the wizarding world in the context of equitable treatment of house-elves- but I was hoping that we could expand this into a broader discussion of what Dumbledore’s loss will mean to the wizarding world. What happens when the voice of reason and enlightenment is suddenly silenced in such dark times? What has always fascinated me about Dumbledore is that he has been the father figure of a generation, several in fact and a trusted leader of sorts who had pretty much won the heart of the public- we just don’t have people in positions of power today who we can count on in that repect. I found it curious that Rowling created a character like Dumbledore that exists in modern times and that he maintained his position without taking a post as Minister of Magic. A discussion of Dumbledore’s past and what his death will mean for Harry and the wizarding world in the future (in the context of the Deathly Hallows as well) could be fun to prognosticate about. Discussion of Dumbledore as a literary archetype (that of the wise old man as mentor) would be interesting as well with a comparative analysis with other fantasy literature and pop-culture could be fun as well
April 27th, 2007 at 10:03 pm
Hey Aaron, I just read your post on Harry and Legilimency! Great minds think alike me thinks!!
April 27th, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Hello guys!!
I just finished listening to today´s podcast and I couldn´t help but thinking that for Harry occlumency is a totally useless enterprise. There is not only the issue of him being so emotional. He can´t help it to be that emotional, specially after witnessing Dumbledore´s death. There is not much insight that I can give you about the subject, it´s pretty much gutt feeling about it.
If he really comes to master it, it will be such a surprise that it will give me serous doubts about the consistency of the plot so far. But again, Harry has shown us that he is pretty much up to any challenge that is thrown at him, so who knows.
About the contest, well, what can I say… I am not only totally devoid of an american like accent, I sound sometimes like I should be selling burritos at a Taco Bell near you… jus´ kidding, as I feel proud of the way my english sounds… one of these days I´ll let you know… when I´m drunk enough I mean, hahahahaha. Some people (one person actually) say that when I get a cold, I kind of sound like a sore-throated Tom Brokaw… go figure.
About theories… well… you might hate this, but I always kind of thought that Dumbledore was the bad guy all along, that one got totally crushed after his death, so I am totally theory-less as of now. But not to fuss… I am still thinking of some way to make good old Dumby fit the bad-guy theory somehow…. stay tuned…
As always I love your podcasts and I can´t wait for you uys to get a new mixer… a new gadget is always fun to play with… I can´t hardly wait for my iPhone myself, hahahaha.
Greetings to everyone on the forum!!!
April 28th, 2007 at 1:13 am
Hi y’all,
I’ve been listening to the podcast since sometime in February. I found it around then and then started getting caught up on the episodes the last week in February when I was home sick from work. I have enjoyed it immensely.
I hadn’t posted here, yet, but I grew up in Florida, so I wanted to let Greg know I also saw “Captain Eo” (I don’t even remember how Eo is spelled.) I have seen “Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones” and “Superman Returns” at the IMAX. “Superman Returns” was in 3D in parts. It would be interesting to see “Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix” there as well, but “Superman Returns” was just as good in a regular movie theater without being in 3D, so you could probably take it or leave it.
I don’t really have anything new to contribute this time around, though I always enjoy reading and hearing all of y’all’s insights. I enjoyed the contest and hearing the winner. Can’t wait for Andrew to be on the podcast with y’all.
I’ll be in England this summer at the end of June through beginning of July, so I won’t be there for the movie or book release, but it will be fun to be there a couple of weeks to a week before amonst the hype.
Greetings to everyone here!
April 28th, 2007 at 3:25 pm
Greetings Prognosticators,
Harry sees the world through eyes that can love. it’s that love that Voldemort cannot “see” when he reads Harry’s thoughts, therefore it’s not necessarily important for Harry to occlude those thoughts. It’s ultimately love that will defeat Voldemort, we all know that.
About Dumbledore’s death: Dumbledore made Snape promise that he would kill Dumbledore. It was an act of love on Snape’s part, a way of saving Malfoy and keeping Snape in Voldemort’s good graces. Remember earlier in book 6 Snape arguing with Dumbledore that he didn’t want to do it, but Dumbledore saying that he had promised.
About the Covers: Look at the UK cover, notice how Hogwarts looks very different? It’s like the White Tomb of the 6th book. Also notice in the foreground of the US edition, the broken timbers. I believe that Hogwarts will be destroyed. Perhaps with Harry’s rested body the new, pearly white and indestructable Hogwarts will be resurrected. I think the white tomb is important. What do you think?
I love the podcast, Greg and Penny. Keep up the good work and get some music please.
Suzanne
April 28th, 2007 at 3:51 pm
Yes Greg in Toronto our minds were on similar channels. You must be practicing your occlemncy as I felt a strange burning on my forehead just before you posted. Forgive me doasis but I am regressing back to my original skyhook. In GOF did not Voldemort block a couple of Harry’s spells in the graveyard beford they connected? Was not Snape neutralizing Harry’s spells the same way at the end of HBP? So what I was getting at is one of the reasons Occlemcy/Legilamacy are important to master is that an enemy can tell what you are going to send at him before you do it. He can have a defense prepared before he is even zapped. I know the whole information is power angle so there is another use as subversive spying and lie detecting. I was thinking another was to defend against posscession as what happened to Harry in the battle at the minestry in OOTP. Snape’s saying you won’t last 5 seconds if he invades your mind prior to his body being posscessed at the minestry just made me wonder about that. These are just reasons I felt that Dumbledore required Harry to attempt to learn these skills. I’m not sure he ever really did master them but Dumbledore certainly treated him differently in HBP acting as if he was no longer a security risk. I dunno let me close by asking If Snape screams in the dark forest and no one is around to hear him, does he make any noise?
April 28th, 2007 at 8:52 pm
Aaron- I don’t mean to insult you nor patronize you and i hope Penny doesn’t tag me a “time out” for saying this but…
When someone suggests a theory that either lacks outright or sits upon and ambiguous foundation, I consider it a skyhook and that annoys me. When someone suggests a theory through a rational foundation- that isn’t a skyhook. When you assert a similar topic to eluciate through comparison that’s also not a skyhook- it’s an analogy. I didn’t, in your post of April 27th, 2007 at 10:39 am, see how you meant how Occlumancy/ Legilimency helped block spells and i called it a skyhook. Since then you have used a an analogy and reaseerted your argument exampling how you mean it.
Maybe i dismissed your first use without tact, and i’m sorry about that, but how did you think i meant it? Why do you call your thinking a skyhook when your explaining yourself?
Now let me disagree with you. If i understand you, Your saying Voldemort and Snape are maintaining eye-contact (not eye on wand, eye on lips, etc.), wordlessly casting the legilimency spell, learning Harry’s attacks, and still have TIME to block the spell with their wand and with each block.
I find this unbelieveable. Every spell requires a “swish and flich” and
Harry has to enunciate the spell. That is sufficient, i think, to preclude a successfull block. I say Legilimency would be a hinderance. I think this is serious magic that cannot be done with the ease your thinking suggests. I think you swish your wand when your opponent does, maybe i’m wrong.
I still don’t understand you about V possesing Harry in the Ministry. Maybe i am assuming that using Legilimency to gleam memories of your opponent and/or allowing your opponent to pervieve what your visualizing is different from trying to take control of another conciousness and body.
Let me explain what i’m thinking. If i want to see inside someone’s mind, i brush against and look inside- like looking in a window. If this someone empties their mind of thoughts, then there’s nothing i can see, like if the room inside is really dark. But if i want to posees this mind i have to insert myself into it- like crawling through the window. I don’t see how making it really dark inside will help lock the window.
Now if you tell me that looking through a window is similar to crawling in through a window “Because V can do both” I’d call that a skyhook. What’s supporting this line of thinking? Nothing it’s held from above. On April 27th, 2007 at 10:39 am, that’s what I read.
April 28th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Wow doasis ! I guess I’ll take that as your version of tossing me an olive branch. I will admit your frustration can seem patronizing but I feel I am at fault too. Many of the liberties I take with the english language and your comments are mean’t just to egg you on somewhat. I am and have never claimed to be an expert on these books. I’m just a retired Army guy who drives trains now. I simply let you know what I think and listen carefully to what you say because I do consider you somewhat of an expert. I do apologise if you have taken anything I say personally. Your passion is just so intense at times I try to lighten the conversation but hopefully not at your expense. In my world people are very thick skinned so I sometimes put my foot in my mouth. I’m new to this blogging thing so speaking to people I have never met or really know me may reveal my lack of social skills. I’m here to learn and pass a little time with good people sharing a similar intrest. I promise not to stand outside your window singing the best of disney songs anymore eventhough I really liked that part. Ok Penny can I come out the corner now?!
April 28th, 2007 at 10:22 pm
Oh doasis btw thanks for taking the time to explain your thoughts on what I was saying earlier as it was meant more as a question than a theory. I guess I am just looking for the bottom line to as why it was so important for Harry to learn this and if we have given up on thinking he can master this skill.
April 30th, 2007 at 12:35 am
doasis: I really like the idea that Snape was on the fence UNTIL the moment where he had to make a CHOICE (i.e. when he could no longer play both sides against the middle). It fits very much with the overall theme of Book 6, which is that things are not black and white, there is no real all good or all evil in most things. Snape, as a Slytherin, was working as hard as he could to avoid making a committment to either side, until he was finally forced to make a choice.
Of course, this means all our theorizing about if Snape is good or bad is for naught…the answer is he’s neither, until he had to make a definitive choice. What is interesting is that he was even willing to make an Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa…still hoping that he wouldn’t have to carry it out and wouldn’t be revealed as a spy.
By the way, this really, really explains why Snape lives in Spinner’s End. “Oh what a tangled web we weave…When first we practise to deceive!” Book 6 is Snape getting caught in his own web of lies that he has told to both sides. I feel like I need to go back and re-read Book 6 now!
April 30th, 2007 at 12:42 am
BTW doasis, regarding the logos/pathos dialectic: you kind of caught me here in my own web. I really believe that the theme of Book 5 is truth (visit the old HPProgs and look for the essay entitled The Boy Who Knew Too Much). As such, what Voldemort was attempting to arouse in Harry was the curiosity to know the truth behind the mystery of what he was showing him. So, ultimately, Harry’s yearning was for the truth/knowledge of what was at the end of the dream. I think he was spurred on by a healthy dose of emotion, both in wanting to find out what was going on (relating to the overall theme of Harry not really feeling like he knows what’s going on in the world) and what happens to Sirius (i.e. if it was true). As such, there really isn’t much of a dialectic going on here…I don’t think. As I was saying this stuff during the podcast I was aware that I was sort of conflating the two ideas.
To put it shortly, ultimately, I think Book 5 is JKR preaching existentialism. And paying homage to Orwell’s 1984.
April 30th, 2007 at 2:26 am
Greg- I read your old blog a little while ago and i like your comparisons to Orwell. “1984″ is one book but “animal farm” is another. The differences of rule buy the animal species is like the four groups in Potter: the Order v the Death Eaters v the Ministry of Magic v the wizarding population. This tension comes into play if Goblet, Order, and Prince.
Web spinners end is sometihing i never considered- its because of Spiderman 3. I liked the 1st one! Of course i saw Phantom Menace in the same month and i desolved my STARWARS fanship thanks to that crappy prequile trilogy.
I won’t go as far as saying deciding Snape’s goodness is for “naught” but i feel it is prioritizing one arguement over the other. Taking both arguments equally leads to one conclusion: Snape isn’t either Dumbledore’s man or Voldmort’s. This is unique to the characters, Snape stands alone as a “shade of grey” morality.
As for Prince you’ll reread that Snape was all for the unbreakable promise and was cool with the first two: protect Draco and help Draco. It was the third one, complete Draco’s mission, that Snape showed reluctance. He wanted to pull his hand back but knew he couldn’t with Bellatrix as certain of Snape’s goodness as the fandom, would kill him right there. He understood then that his loyalty started to matter. Even now i am not convinced he wants to chose but he has to and his play as a double agent helps redeem him with the Order but, in the long term, ruins him with V.
If i can take a step into abstraction here: Why does knowledge matter?
Epicitus famously said “only the educated are free” and you remark Harry’s curiousity can be used against him, to imprison him to V’s machinations. If i may put this in juxtaposition, to have knowledge is freedom, like Voldemort, but to seek knowledge is imprisioning, like Harry. While I won’t disagree with Harry, V isn’t the free one here Dumbledore is. Voldemort wants the prophecy and goes to great lengths to get it Dumbledore has the knowledge but is increasingly aware that Harry and V have a insidious bond. D couldn’t tell Harry what was going on about the Dementor because the ministry would take the Owl delivering it. But he wouldn’t tell Harry in Grimauld place and after because he fears Voldemort learing through Harry (yeah, yeah Harry’s innocence red herring).
Harry doesn’t understand that his knowlede can be learned by V as his experience is that V’s knowledge is available to Harry. Harry feels he has a right to know, lead even, in the fight against V and doesn’t consider this down side. I think it’s Harry’s desire to lead the fight against V and his experience that as long as Harry beats V to whatever V wants, like in Stone, then Harry wins. Harry has then proof to himself, and in Order the public at large, he’s not a fraud. I consider this an emotional motive to his curiousity and it is this that Voldemort can exploit.
In contrast, Hermione holds a rational curiosity. Yes, she wants to know what V is up to, and yes, she wants to stop him; but is rational to know that this knowledge comes at great cost. She can be patient and focus on the imediate problems of learing defense properly. That’s why she wants the D.A. Yes the helps her in the O.W.L.s but isn’t that the point? take each step in the appropriate order and defeat V when the optimal time comes. Harry is impatient and “ready” for the final battle now. Harry learns this faulty in the Ministry fight and is better prepared in Prince because of it. Can you see what i mean there is a rational and emotional curiosities at work here?
April 30th, 2007 at 2:47 pm
April 30th, 2007 at 10:47 pm
What’s in a name?
We have “Spinners End”, which can refer to webs, invisibility cloaks, a place of endings etc. “Godric’s Hollow” which can refer to Griffendor and sounds like “Sleepy Hollow” in the gut when you hear it. Perhaps Greg and Penny will do a podcast on the names of places in the books and how they have foreshadowed the story or may foreshadow it.
I’m digging your comments, keep them coming!
Suz
May 2nd, 2007 at 9:43 am
I’ve been pondering over your argument that Harry will never master Occlumency, and in my reading, I have to say, you’re completely wrong.
First, Snape gives Harry the first clue as to how to use Occlumency when he tells him that the same mental power used to overthrow the Imperius curse is used. Remember, Harry was able to overthrow the Imperius curse completely within his first encounter with it. It took Barty Crouch, Sr (Slated to be Minister of Magic, he’s so powerfuL) months to cast it off, by the same person who had cast it on Harry.
Second, Harry is able to cast wandless magic (the Lumos! in OOTP), which is not seen often in the books. That takes some serious mental prowress.
Finally, and this is the most important, Harry’s ability to survive flitting into Voldy’s mind. Throughout OOTP, Harry not only can see what V is doing, he can feel his emotions. He’s performing Legilimency without knowing how, and without any damage to himself. That is evident in HBP when Dumbledore explains to Harry the importance of an untarnished soul. He tells Harry that while he can pass through V’s mind without suffering any damage to himself (remember, V is using Occlumency on Harry at this point), V cannot possess him without enduring mortal agony. Now, my theory! The pain that Harry felt when V possessed him in the Ministry was not his own, rather, it was the pain that V was feeling inside of him. Just the fact that Harry was able to remain cognizant during first, the possession and second, the pain V was feeling proves that in his own way, he’s mastered Occlumency without knowing it.
I think that in the coming book, with Snape gone, Harry will be able to contine and master his Occlumency (and the nvbl spells — he could do it with Felix, which doesn’t make you a better wizard, it just makes you lucky). He’s a much better wizard when he isn’t around Snape, remember, this man is responsible for his parents’ deaths. I wonder (crackpot warning!) if Harry hasn’t always known this on some level, hence the long-standing hatred. Finally, his mastery of this skill will come unexpectedly, as he learns how to master his use of magic without a wand (something we know is coming with the US cover).
Thanks for “listening” to me rant — keep up the good work!!
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Wow, very good episode! I just listened to it, it was awesome. Very deep and analytical. I hadn’t thought much about this but after listening to your discussion I feel sure this occlumency/legilimency thing will play a role in the final book.
I enjoyed reading your “about us” page. I can’t wait to read about Penny and see pictures. I have an exact idea in my mind of what you look like, which means you probably don’t look like that at all. Penny’s voice sounds very much like someone I know, so of course she must have shoulder-length straight brown hair . . . Does Greg build websites we might have seen anywhere? And, well, I’m much older, I was in high school when the Star Wars movies came out. I’ve practically got the first one memorized (”Aren’t you a little short for a Storm Trooper?”). Classic, classic, the prequels are not at all in the same league with the originals. And one more thing — wow, you’ve got THREE children? I envisioned a very obedient toddler who sleeps about 14 hours a day, leaving you time to pursue the podcast. I’m in awe that you have time for this on a regular basis, that is quite amazing. Great work, guys!
May 14th, 2007 at 11:27 pm
I just listened to this episode today at work, and I can’t BELIEVE no one jumped on here to tell Greg how Deus ex Machina is pronounced! So, Greg, for the record, and in the vein of being, you know, a podcast for the more intelligent HP fan, it’s DAY-yoos ex MAH-kee-nah. The ‘ch’ is hard. I don’t know if I can stand hearing that term butchered again! (You’re welcome.)
July 15th, 2007 at 4:20 pm
This is exactly what I expected to find out after reading the title Episode #30: Occlumens and Legilimency. Thanks for informative article