Episode #28: S.P.E.W in this – A House Elves Podcast
House Elves were made to serve…or were they? This week’s podcast uncovers the complex philosophical conundrums disguised as bug-eyed, self-flagellating little green monsters.
In the News:
- If you work in a library, don’t even think about abusing your Deathly Hallows rights.
- The Scholastic Knight Bus: Coming to a library near you?
- Darn, I misplaced my invisibility cloak AGAIN!
- The Hogwarts Express’s vandalism has been avenged!
If you’re interested, the book mentioned in this week’s podcast is The Pig That Wants to Be Eaten: 100 Experiments for the Armchair Philosopher
If you speak any kind of English other than American, don’t forget to enter our So You Think OUR Accents are Rubbish? contest.
You can listen to the podcast using the player below, or you can download it directly as an mp3.
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April 12th, 2007 at 3:12 am
Excellent Episode guys!!
April 12th, 2007 at 4:18 am
that was a gr8 episode, and really deep and thought provoking. pity i listened to this just after waking up.
April 12th, 2007 at 11:32 am
Well what can I say this is a very complex subject. The truth is unless you are the person that this actually happens to, there is no way to understand fully the reasons or feelings behind it. Giving some examples on this touchy subject would be the emancipation proclamation and how it had no immediate affect on those in bondage. Even after the Civil War just saying your free is nice but you still have to have a place to live and food to eat. If my history serves me the short term effect was to leave a way of life in bondage to start another share cropping and in the end there was not much difference with discrimination or civil rights until many other battles were fought even 100 years later. Still there is the danger of history repeating itself so bigotry, discrimination and those demons have hidden underground but are all still there popping up from time to time. In current world events I believe somewhere I already stated that giving the Iraqi people freedom means squat to those who worry more about food and water and daily survival. Saying they are free doesn’t change their daily predicaments. Such as with the house elves change is scary. Why bother unless their is a great abuse or evil going on as with Dobby. Dobby was no smarter than anyone else. He appreciates freedom only because it was much better than his alternative. On the opposite end when a people have a luxery of knowing there is food in the refidgerator and 2 cars in the driveway of their home with Cable TV and computers and heat and airconditioning they tend to take such things for granted so much that freedoms are lost daily. Look at the power a housing association has over your life. Again it is easier to accept the loss of freedoms slowly rather than make ripples in the water of our comfort zones. Never realizing what we have lost until it reaches the extreme and then it can be too late. So in closing let me say regardless of race religion or nationality we can all be considered house elves. I compare this podcast to the pink floyd album animals. G”day all Aaron
April 12th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
god aaron is good, u guys should snap him up before a rival podcast do
April 12th, 2007 at 1:06 pm
Wow. yes, you are right Mark. Aaron is good, but the good news is that I don’t think any rival podcasts will put up with his “bad behavior!” (JUST JOKING- we all love SFC).
But seriously- excellent assessment, Aaron. I was thinking about the slavery in the US situation as Greg and I were talking last night, but I already had so much to say on the matter, I didn’t want to go all night. Well said on all counts.
April 12th, 2007 at 5:11 pm
Aaron touched on some things i feel on the subject. If the wizards have subjegated the house elves and no longer cook or clean or do other meanial tasks than in some ways the wizard is the slave, in so far as they are dependant upon their house elfs.
Aaron also talked about Iraq in the context that the means of survival win out over freedom. In the Kurdish north they are thriving under what regime change has brought. Much like Dobby they are securing their territory, exploring for oil and wealth and living in peace. It took Dobby two years to get a paying job at Hogwarts but he is the better for it. Kurdishtan (if i may) is in a similar transition with similar promise. The other parts of Iraq look like Northern Ireland in the 1970’s. Regime change there has released the spillways of a thousand year old conflict within Islam regarding which of Muhammed’s nephews is the proper heir to Muhammed’s position (what was his position anyway- aren’t profits chosen by god?) I disagree with Aaron that survival trumps freedom in Iraq but say the ‘problem’ is that too many Iraqi’s lack the techniques to resolve conflicts non-violently and ‘who is in charge now’ is a source of conflict. (maybe that separation of church and state thing isn’t so bad an idea after all.)
I feel this might parallel the house elf plight. What if Hermione is sucessful in her efforts and creates a deep division amongst the house elfs. Durring Order and Prince it is a theme that all the house elves are united against their freedom. They scorn Dobby and Winky and they refuse to clean Gryffindors common room because they reject the hats. That unity is not too be overlooked. Its great that Harry has a house elf squire on the UK cover but it isn’t too large a leap to say Kreacher would side with Voldemort- and he can’t be alone. Isn’t it better that the house elves are united and not involved than involved splitly in the fight?
The center of this is conciousness and this is where Hermione (and PotUS) made greivious errors of judgement. Freedeom is only a virture if you understand virtures. Hermione didn’t free anyone because and would have been better served explaining the benefits of S.P.E.W.’s goals to house elves.
Securing fair wages and working conditions
Repealing the provision of non-wand use
Establishing representation within the Ministries Department of Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures.
Those are valid goals but freedom won’t secure these goals Securing these goals WILL give freedom. In the end it just proves that Sirius is Right: Hermione still has a lot to learn.
(Shout out to the hp-lexicon for the research.)
April 12th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Oops it’s “God.”
Being a pantheist, i wrote expressing my veiws (Me being ‘non-devine’ can’t be able to decide who/what IS devine.) We can all see how offensive that can be.
April 12th, 2007 at 6:09 pm
Ouch… I think you guys were a little tough on Dumbledore there. To call the Hogwarts house-elf system ’slave labor’ is a bit harsh, I think. They are not paid, but it certainly seems that the Hogwarts house-elves are treated as well as, frankly, they will themselves tolerate. Dumbledore happily offered Dobby a generous salary, and even condemned Sirius’s treatment of Kreacher. As Dumbledore himself says, he does not have the power to change the minds of others- in this case, the minds of the Wizarding World and of virtually all house-elves. In order for the Hogwarts elves to accept payment, their entire way of thinking would have to be overhauled. Maybe I’m being an apologist, but the man can’t fix everything. On this note, the thing is that house-elves appear not to tolerate, but to *adore* their work. This may be a coping mechanism, but as we’ve seen with Hermione, it’s close to impossible to tell a group, “Hey guys! As an enlightened individual, I can see that this way of life you revere really stinks! Let’s get you out of it!” Even Dobby didn’t want to hear that. I don’t even know how one would (in a proper and inoffensive manner, aka sans SPEW) go about “blessing” the house-elves with freedom.
And while I see what you’re saying about ingrained ways of life, I don’t necessarily know if the servile mentality of house-elves is entirely societal. Take Winky as an example. Winky’s situation is about as close to autonomy as we have seen from an unpaid house-elf- she was integral to Crouch’s plans for his son, and was free to use her magic to control Jr. She even managed to persuade him to allow Jr. a trip to the Quidditch cup, which is a level of assertiveness I couldn’t see in Hokey or Kreacher. Winky has tasted more freedom than the other house-elves we know, and yet she is still dangerously devoted to Crouch. I guess this could be an argument for the opposite opinion as well, but I think it’s worth considering.
April 12th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
Not sure were to put this put visit the following site:
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21538005-13762,00.html
This is too much a coincidence a cat takes a bus regularly. I thinks its a Animagi. a Kneasle at the least.
April 12th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Wow compliments ! Thanks Mark and Penny. Doasis you are just the essence of cool. and Michal I must agree that they were harsh on Dumbledore. I kind a reckoned it to how we remember Thomas Jefferson as a great founding father of freedom who happened to own slaves. Also the author of The Declaration of Independance. Hint Hint get those mp3’s in for the contest. Doasis you are very right(wait and let me put on my life jacket cuz it’s gettin deep) I don’t think that survial trumps freedom only that those who have never known it have a hard time seeing what the big deal is. I may be a little prejudiced in my views on Iraq as they rarely send combat soldiers to places that are doing well. The Kurdish could well be compared to Dobby as the ones who take to freedom and change just because the alternative is pretty dismal. They were treated in ways that necessitated change. In there case survival doesn’t trump freedom but freedom is survival. I mean look at Japan after WWII, this largely feudal people with ancient noble codes of honor and bushido ste-pped up from the ashes of defeat and world hatred to regain prestidge and success. It can happen. Vietnam is reaching out looking to the United States as a model for modernization. China is economically intertwined with us and for the first time a reunified Germany is taking its place as the economic powerhouse leader in the european area without everyone worring about be invaded. These are all past enemies in the very truest sense of the word but change has come and will continue. It is just my argument that freedom is just only defended by those that have experienced it or have no other option. I will end with my great philosher’s line again.,………….,”Out here due process is a bullet” John Wayne
April 12th, 2007 at 8:38 pm
Do NOT COMPLIMENT THE HOUSE ELVES!!!! DANG IT GIVE THE GUY SOCKS AND HE COMES HERE AND PEOPLE TELL HIM HE IS GOOD!!! Go drive w train or something
In all seriousness good line to get rid of those pesky things is a fly swatter!
April 12th, 2007 at 9:18 pm
I think that Greg needs to start paying more attention to his sci-fi. First he doesn’t know who ordered Alderran destroyed, now he thinks that it was a pig that wanted to be eaten. IT WAS A COW! (and it was Restaurant at the End of the Universe…not Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy). C’mon man…don’t make us geeks look bad.
April 12th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
J.K. Rowling uses the plight of the house-elves as a great way to show how systems of inequality rarely operate in isolation and how they are propped up by engrained societal beliefs. The way that all these systems feed off each is incredibly complex, on so many levels (morally, econmically, socially, etc.)
During my teacher training I did an “Equity in Education” course where I learned some interesting things that can be applied to the conflicts we have seen laid out by Rowling in the Potter universe. “Terra Nullis” is a term used by scholars to describe colonial and post-colonial perspectives regarding indigenous cultures. Basically, it posits that colonialists saw inhabitants and their lands as “empty”, without an authentically rich culture of their own, and as a consequence, their lands and peoples were often ignorantly eroticized or feminized in colonial writings. Terra Nullis also gave colonials license to supplant this “empty” culture with their own using various methods which often included assimilation, exclusion, and sometimes, even extinction(which is evidenced to a large part with the Giants in Rowling’s books). We see the house-elves as being similarly subjugated: their culture has come to be defined by many in the wizarding world as a culture of subservience. With the house-elves, we see a race of beings that have been placed on the bottom rung of this chain of being (symbolized so immortally by the Fountain of “Magical Bretheren” in the atrium of the Ministry of Magic in OoP) and who have suffered generations of maltreatment and indifference to the point where this racism itself has become internalized. We see this quite clearly in Dobby’s initial loyalty to the Malfoy family and the reaction of the Hogwart’s house-elves to Dobby’s later demands to be compensated financially for his services in Book 4.
What I have always found intriguing is that there has been mention in the books of a powerful magic that the elves themselves possess which they don’t seem to use to empower themselves. Dobby of course, is the exception to this rule- as he finally gives Lucius Malfoy the what-for at the end of Chamber of secrets. It is ironic that it is magic that Dobby uses to empower himself at the end of Chamber and it is also magic that binds his kind into the slave-master bond that has come to define his people. This irony I believe is very symbolic of the institutionalized racism we see portrayed over the course of the series- what this will mean for the conclusion of Book 7 will be intriguing as we know that Voldemort is a practiced manipulator of these systems to ultimately achieve his own ends.
Any system of inequality involves a confict between a person, or persons who are in the dominant position and another person, or groups of people on the other end of the spectrum who do not have access, or limited access to the resources of those in the dominant group. The plight of the hous-elves is a great example that illustrates this binary dynamic- we see other examples illustrated with rich (Malfoys) vs. poor(Weasleys), wizard vs. muggle, pure-blood vs. muggle-borns, wizards vs. squibs, even male vs. female- the examples abound in the series. Ultimately, I think Rowling has done a great job by weaving a complex tapestry which further reveals the parallels to our own world. When Dumbledore makes his commentary on the lie which the fountain of magical brethren represents and i built on, I sometimes wonder if the wizarding world as a whole will come to confront and question the reasons why so many of these esseintialist ideals exist and begin constructing a more equitable system- we of course struggle with these same issues every single day in so may different ways.
Just one other thing, I thought some people were a bit hard on Hermione, lol. S.P.E.W. may be a little heavy-handed in its methodology and lacking in practical application, but I think what we see here is a young woman who is trying to marry all of her knowledge with her burgeoning social consciousness. Hermione is just trying to find her voice and be heard, so be a little easier on her
April 12th, 2007 at 11:45 pm
Whoops, I forgot to congratulate you guys on another great podcast, Penny and Greg. It gave me a lot to think about and has generated a lot of interesting discussion on the blog!
April 13th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Hi Penny and Greg,
!
I have to say I do work in a public library and in fact I will be the first person to touch the harry potter books for our branch. Our library hasn’t had to sign any contracts yet, but I think any librarian worth their ilk wouldn’t even dream about leaking spoilers. In fact I have made a promise to myself to not flip to the back and read the last chapter! It is going to take every fiber of my being and a lot of prayers not to give in, but I know that I will make it through this trying struggle of my life
Loved the podcast keep up the good work. I say don’t worry if your podcast goes too long. I say the longer the better!
thanks for entertaining me and giving me stuff to prognosticate!
April 13th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Wow. So much to say. All of you make such good points and the thought and organization you all put into them, puts me to shame.
A few points (a very few):
I apologize if we gave Dumbledore a hard time but I don’t take it back. As much as I think Dumbledore was a great wizard, he was not perfect. While it is very possible that Dumbledore’s treatment of the house elves in Hogwarts was the most humane and ideal way to treat them, it doesn’t negate the fact that like Greg in T said, the House Elf culture has become so completely immersed in the culture of servitude so even the racism displayed to them has become internalized. I don’t think that it was Dumbledore’s job to fix everything and like Michal said, it would take major overhaul to accomplish the task, but I would at least think that ideally, someone LIKE Dumbledore (if it weren’t him) had the resources and initiative to fix this problem. Perhaps when Hermione has matured in the coming years she will be the one to solve the problem.
April 13th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
By the way, Luvssnape, don’t say that too loud. You know Greg will be knocking on your door to try to get info. Smart gal (for some reason I am assuming you are female- if not, I apologize) you are for using a pseudonym.
April 13th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Ha! Iwas going to tell Luvssnape that I was going to start killing innocent spiders unless she did exactly what I say. There deaths would be on her concious, I thought of Greg and his Emperor Palipentine immitation and figured he would have similar thoughts. Don’t worry Luvsnape your safe by me…….well maybe HA HA! Frank it wasn’t a cow or even sci-fi it was Charletts Web…WILBUR!!!!!!! Greg in Toronto congrats on your celebrity status. I’ve been waiting for you to go all Terrance and Phillip (south Park) on Greg. Penny, Penny, Penny, Penny you will see just how perfect Dumbledore is in just 98days. I can’t believe you guys nevered mentioned the countdown days passing so quickly. Are you looking at it as an ominous end of an era? How house elfish of you. Dee go put on your Elf robe yes tis a mark of enslavement and we is gonna have a toga party! GO Greek!
April 13th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Aaron- We can keep with the military history diatribe forever and ever. Too bad you don’t work in the Administration. PotUS could use a little military history instead of “Yes men” like Gates and Rice.
Michal- Maybe we are too harsh on Dumbledore. We shouldn’t speak poorly of the dead. (I hate myself to arguing from ignorance but…) We don’t know he treated the Hogwarts house elves: maybe it was “better” than ever in their treatment, maybe it was treatment, the elves considered “better”. Maybe Dumbledore was more outspoken about more pressing inequalities, like the giants or centuars.
Greg in Toronto- (knowing what i do about Toronto “Yukon Greg” wouldn’t be a compliment. I disrespect Canada because i’m jealous. Nobody hates Canadians- everybody hates America) You make some great points about conciousness i couldn’t have.
You’re right I am too mean to Hermione. She was very selfish at the onset of Stone but by the end she extended concern outward to Harry and Ron. This continued in Chamber. She took another step concerning herself with Hagrid and Buckbeak and Sirius Black by the end. In Goblet She befriended Viktor Krum even if it was on different levels between them. She continues to grow through Order and Prince, with House elves and Centuars. This is marked development for a teenager.
Still, the way she included the Centuars in her plans for dispatching Umbridge, her methods of securing house elf equality; I feel i am right in saying she has room to mature in terms of strategy. I think this is foreshadowed early in the books when she isn’t very good at Wizard Chess.
Contrast this to Ron. He defends the Status Quo of house elves yet i feel confident in saying if he encountered a particular elf who wants freedom, like a Dobby, he would be inclined to free it. Ron doesn’t strike me as holding a ‘general principals’ mindset, but has a sharp mind for particular situations: getting the memory from Slughorn, or the grand chess match in Stone.
Harry is the most interesting. He is nice to Dobby even when he’s trying to to kill him. When the opportunity arises to free Dobby he takes it. When dealing with Kreacher it is a morally complicated situation. He dispises Kreacher, but is curteous and nice none the less. He would love to free K but accepts the liabilty that entails and is forced to keep ownership and control for the Order’s sake. This is a tough comprimise. And its harder for him to commit to S.P.E.W. when he is in this ethical bind.
Lastly, the link i submitted earlier isn’t spam it’s a link to a news report that favors the posibility of magical cats in England. It is an animagi or a kneasle?
April 13th, 2007 at 4:31 pm
I checked out that link doasis, It was pretty incredable I must agree that it seems almost supernatueral. Cute story regardless. I guess there isn’t much on house elves in the lexicon is there?
April 13th, 2007 at 4:38 pm
I vote for Kneasle. I have a special place in my heart for Crookshanks.
April 13th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Never tease a kneasle. The kneasle will not like it and teasing isn’t nice.
April 13th, 2007 at 5:05 pm
I just wanted to say that everyone has been doing a great job contributing to this blog each week- I feel like a real sense of community has developed here and its been nice being able to share our thoughts on something we obviously all adore
Doasis and Aaron- I was really astounded by your comments and your historical applications to the podcast- wow- I love history, so I just ate it up. Doasis- thanks for the Canadian shout-out- I am very proud to be a Canadian, thank you very much, so, uh, Greg, S.P.E.W. on that, lol…God save the queen!!.. yada yada, yada (your emperor impression definitely had me laughing though)
luvssnape- I am so jealous!! Is your library going to be having a midnight party to celebrate the book?? Actually, speaking of which, has anyone made plans for the book release??? I am actually going to be going to a midnight release book party at a local bookstore so I can start reading the same night. Traditionally, I had always got the book Sat. morning with special deliveries Canada Post provided, but I really want to go out and get caught up in the excitement with my friends since this will be last one… sniff…
Penny- I have to agree with you on Dumbledore- while he is my favourite character in the series (and I am craving more back story on him in Deathly Hallows) and sets a high standards, as he states in HBP that his mistakes are correspondingly bigger. True, it is not his job to be the moral compass for the entire wizarding world, he tried his best when trying to appeal to Fudge with the way he conducted business in his position of power and spoke out against the ministry at personal cost- I guess a man can only champion so many causes…
April 13th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
Good advice, never tease a keasle. Not least because, let’s face it, the kneasle could probably humiliate you in a tease-out if he so chose.
Penny and GiT- I just keep going over it in my head, and I really don’t think there was anything more Dumbledore could have done for the house-elves… was there? I mean, it’s Dumbledore- I feel like it’s pretty safe to say that if he *could* have done anything more, he would have.
April 13th, 2007 at 5:48 pm
I like the topic of Dumbledore. I think his character is why I enjoyed the Half Blood Prince so much. It seemed in the past books he was used more as the embodiment of J.K. Rowley so she could make a statement or fact known and have it be truly incontavertable. (Still luv that word) In the HBP he has a much more active role and they bond between him and Harry is just firmly established. Statements like being Dumbledores man thru and thru and when he is dying and took weak to apparate from the cave and Harry brings them back to Hogwarts his statement about not being worried or afraid because he is with Harry is just (whats a good word here?) touching? humble? complimentary? Any ways that was a very emotional moment that is often overlooked and one of my favorite parts. I guess I never really realized just how much I enjoy his character and not just the fact that he is the one to answer so many of the series questions. I am going to take a moment to discuss Hagrid again. (Penny close your eyes for this part) I felt that so much time was spent on Hagrid and his brother Gawp that they will play a key role in the final book. Hagrid’s character did not need any further developing his loyalties, loves and brutish annoyances are well known before the HBP. Why then spend so much time in book 6 showing him and Grawp? The fact that giants have thick near magic proof skin and destructive force comparable to natural disasters are not just casual points and I think they will be instrumental in some way in Harry’s final victory. Having said that I wonder what Hagrid’s chances of survival are? I relate to him and he is one of my favorite characters(S.P.E.W. on the Hagrid haters!
) How did I end up on this sublect? Ok Penny you can open your eyes again.
April 13th, 2007 at 6:02 pm
It *is* a sense of community that we have here. Someone recently e-mailed us about something and when I e-mailed him back he said that he was excited because he felt like a “mini-celebrity” had e-mailed him (whatever, I am not saying this for my ego. I think my celebritystatus is laughable). But my point is this, I look forward to the e-mails and comments from you guys and I check my e-mail 48,000 times a day hoping that there is an e-mail, comment or something to read from y’all so thanks. (And by the way, we do have real live friends as well. A lot of them to be specific. Sometimes too many…in fact
).
Anyway, enough of my sycophantry (is that a word?).
Aaron- I totally skimmed over the Hagrid part, I was all blah blah blah blah blah (with hand motions to boot). But I agree with you 100% on the Dumbledore comments. I love the man. I think his quotes (both the wise and the funny ones) are brilliant. In fact, he reminds me of my grandfather and grandmother who were really wise and always had great advice to give. If you really want to get the full effect of Dumbledore, go to the library and take out the Half Blood Prince audiobook read by Jim Dale (I LOVE HIM!!! *Giggles like a little girl*!!). Listen to the book starting from the chapter titled Horcrux to the end. The way he does Dumbledore is breathtaking (and not in a Seinfeld kind of way)!
April 13th, 2007 at 6:25 pm
I am inclined to think that Dumbledore’s portrait is going rock the world of
D’s fans in Deathly. Being dead he has nothing to loose withholding anything from Harry here on out. I also suspect he prepared his brother, Alberforth, with a letter or memory or something in case he was killed.
Hagrid and Grawp do seem like something to consider. But i don’t feel they will do anything outside the ORDER’S ROLL. Dumbldore destroyed a horcrux at the cost of his hand. Harry won’t have this problem. I think the secret of a horcrux is to let the soul possess you and try to fight it. Ginny almost lost such a fight, D fought it but it contaminated his hand. Harry can’t be possessed by Voldemort so he, in theory, can destroy the remaining horcruxes with little side effect.
The Order has to fight Voldemort and the Death Eaters directly so Harry is free to seek out these horecruxes. This is the best strategy i can convieve. Hagrid, Mme. Maxine, and Grawp will have a part in that. I can’t see them accompaning Harry- they would draw too much attention.
I thought the cat that takes a bus was a Kneasle at first, but now think its a cheap wizard that wants to avoid paying. It’s still a neat story and being in Britain- it makes you wonder.
April 13th, 2007 at 6:31 pm
Oh boy. I knew that when I saw Greg in Toronto’s “yadayada yada that Seinfield was not far off. I suppose that you know Larry David in Curb your enthusiasm was the creator of Seinfield. I suppose it was invetable being the Summer of Potter is such a close relation to the summer of George. I shall brace myself for the worse and ride it out. Any ways I will have to get that audio book maybe all of them could be Dee’s only hope. I hope your celebrety status continues to grow . One final question would be exactly what hand motions were you giving me?
April 13th, 2007 at 6:40 pm
I’m sorry doasis you got in there between my refreshes. That is a real intresting observation you brought up. I never thought of why Harry was the most qualified to destroy the Horecruxes. I’m mad at myself for not considering it before and I am wowed. Keep this up we won’t even need to read the book. P.S. thanx for not considering me a yes man but my political skills are more a cross between Gen Patton and Jessi Ventura.
April 13th, 2007 at 7:11 pm
Yeah, Aberforth and Albus- what an interesting pair- one ended up a magical prodigy and essentially the Winston Churchill of the wizarding world and the other was a possible illiterate who got caught up in a questionable fiasco with a goat(s). I don’t know about you, but I can’t wait to meet Aberforth Dumbledore in the Deathly Hallows!!
April 13th, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Isn’t that the point?
Aren’t we in these Harry Poter disscussion forums so we can wax intellectual picking our favorite theories like NCAA brackets. Then when the book actually comes out we tally our rights and wrongs and whoever’s correct most of all gets a free tshirt?
I thought that’s why we are here.
April 13th, 2007 at 7:22 pm
You know I never really thought about it doasis. Is it just to procriate the species or is there a higher power guiding us thru our destiny? Guess the free t-shirt theory is as good as any.
April 13th, 2007 at 7:48 pm
One other thing those wizard baseball collectors cards in the chocolate frogs. I remember Ron saying he had 4 Dumbledores. Could they be a future source of portrait communication?
April 13th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
I think the chocolate frog cards will return to significance because of the other pieces of important information that it provided on Dumbledore. First, that he defeated the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945 and that he helped to discover the 12 magical uses of Dragon’s blood. I am convinced that Grindelwald wa the first wizard to have experimented with creating a Horcrux.
April 13th, 2007 at 8:11 pm
How bout the pensieve. I bet dumbledore has an entire encyclopedia of memories to reveal wouldn’t it be great to see him in action in his prime.
April 13th, 2007 at 8:14 pm
Yeah and how about the pensieve I bet there is a whole encyclopedia of Dumbledore memories to be seen wouldn’t it be great to see him in action in his prime?
April 13th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
?
April 13th, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Sorry I was talking about the pensieve and how there must be an encyclopedia of Dumbledore memories there. Wouldn’t it be great to see him in his prime like the battle with Grimmwald.
April 14th, 2007 at 2:18 am
To Penny: Thanks for the comment Penny! I am a female, there tend to be a lot of us in library positions. I just pray I can stay strong and not flip through the book! Perhaps I will have my supervisor keep an eye on me to keep me on the straight and narrow!
To Greg in Toronto: I work in the tech dept. of the library so I need to get with the children’s dept. and see what they are planning for the book release. I am sure they will be doing something, but I hope to be somewhere buying my very own copy that I can try and race through before people start discussing it at work! I can’t decide if I am going to dress up as a character or if I am going to wear my “I Trust Snape (Albus did)” t-shirt to the release party I am going to. Decisions….decisions.
Needless to say my roommate does not understand my infatuation with the Harry Potter series. Oh Well. To each his/her own!
April 14th, 2007 at 2:21 am
God!! You really got me with all this discussion. (Moooom!!! I need a dictionary)
April 14th, 2007 at 10:54 pm
Aberforth might have a shady past (i.e., the goat situation) but many speculate he has played a significant role in the books already (and obviously will continue to in the last book). As the barman at the Hog’s Head, he is (most likely) the one who threw Snape out while eavesdropping on Dumbledore and Trelawney during the prophecy. I would surmise that things MIGHT have worked out differently had Snape (i.e., Voldemort ) heard the whole Prophecy.
BTW, Aaron, we watched most of the first season of “Curb”. I offficially do NOT like it so no worries about Hpprogs turning into a Larry David Prognostications podcast (oh shoot, as I am writing this, Greg is putting the DVD into the DVD player to watch another episode…even he admitted he doesn’t like this and we are HUGE Seinfeld people).
April 15th, 2007 at 12:40 am
That’s just it Penny. In Prince Harry talks to Trelaney about Snape interupting her interveiw and there is a possibility that Snape heard more than Dumbledore thought.
I feel Snape is a true double agent- playing both sides for his own betterment. For a guy who grew up in a troubled home and scorned pitty i think Snape was very peased with his position as a spy and found that Both Voldemort and Dumbledore having great need for him empowering.
Played this way no matter who won he would be rewarded.
I argue that Snape heard the entire prophecy but played dumb about it so as to apease Dumbledore and keep Voldemort in need of him. When Snape learned one of the possibilites of this prophecy results in the death of James Potter, his childhood nemesis, Snape set his own spin into action. V learned of both the Potters and the Longbottoms going into hiding-probably from Snape- and i don’t doubt that Snape planted his own suspicion that the L are red herring (“My lord the Longbottom boy was dorn the 30th i think its the Potter boy”) From there V made his own conclusions and fullfilled the prophecy.
Bellatrix never trusted Snape, thought Snape mislead V into a conventional trap, and convinced Neville is the chosen one targets the Frank and Alice.
We never know of a chocolate frog card relaying more information than what’s printed. I feel the CFC are just a children’s novelty like baseball cards.
April 15th, 2007 at 8:09 am
Greg: thanks for not making any mother in law jokes!! Much appreciated!!
April 15th, 2007 at 8:15 am
Aaron- I just looked in our Spam file and for some reason your first 2 pensieve comments were marked as spam. No worries, they’re back. (Don’t worry, I have made comments on this site that have been thought of as Spam, I am like- this is MY site!). Oh well. I guess better safe than sorry.
April 15th, 2007 at 9:52 am
Well I probably pretty close to spam anyways
. Big hello to Greg”s mother-in-law. You need to ground Penny until she acknowledges the greatness of Hagrid. Hey Doasis my interpretation was Trawlaney doesn’t remeber any of her true prophisees, also When Snape was caught evesdropping and expelled I’m not sure why it would have been told that he heard only part of it if he hadn’t. Wasn’t something in the book mentioned about him feeling guilt for the Potter’s murder? The presume to much argument between Snape and the big D as related by HAGRID and Dumbledores pleading at the end of his life convinced me that Snape is on the side of the Order along with Dumbledores unfaltering trust and defense of Severis. Dumbledore is always on the mark. It is his characters purpose and I see no reason for that to change. I thought it had been thought that the reason for Dumbledores loyalty for Snape was directly related to his guilt about the Godricks Hollow murders. I’m not trying to debate or shoot down what you said I just wanted to give my interpretation of these events. I do believe that Voldemort is not stupid. I think he knows full well that Snape is his enemy and am almost certain that Snape will lose his life to him in some dramatic way. Probably saving Harry. Does this make sense based on what you have read I ask because I’m sure you are much deeper in these books than I have been. Actually I ask anyone who has idea’s on this to set me straight if I’m going down the wrong path. Thanks signed the perturbed prognosticator.
P.S.Hagrid haters can eat chupa! (Greg knows what that means.)
April 15th, 2007 at 10:17 am
BTW Penny I think we own 4 seasons of Curb cuz Dee likes him. Guess the can’t wait and see what this fellow does next grew on her. She said that the part that makes it good is that Larry isn’t acting that he is actually that way. Kinda gives ya a new perpective on the Seinfield humor. I will admit I have watched them and even though I find it incredably annoying I have laughed at it. Trust me though that Beautiful Joe movie is much better.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:13 am
Aaron you may be right but Dumbledore admits he makes mistakes bigger ones than most. While i think he knows the Horcruxes correctly i also think he made two mistakes. One is not telling Harry about the Prophecy earlier, and the second is trusting Snape. I think Snape is in it for himself. He is equally loyal to D and Voldemort but puts himself ahead of that.
S’s guilt over the Potter’s death is posturing. Trelawney may have been in a daze but Dumbledore said how much Snape overheard and i think S heard more than D could tell. Hagrid’s defense of Snape comes from his loyalty to D and his position as a Gamekeeper and later Professor but he was never Snapes equal in tenure. That matters, Hagrid is very respectful of his superiors. Lastly, fat lottta good D’s begging did him right before his murder.
If Snape is going to dye by sacrifice it will be for Ron and Hermione not Harry, not the son of Snape’s rival who looks and acts just like James. Jo says only two people dye in Deathly and i say it’s Voldemort and Harry.
April 16th, 2007 at 6:14 am
Wow. A bunch of comments here so far.
Re: the UK book cover… I keep thinking it’s a vault at Gringotts, and the creature on Harry’s back could be a goblin.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:16 am
Doasis, I just can’t see Dumbledore begging for his life. I think his hand was a mortal wound and he was probably being kept alive by Snape. The liquid in the cave and his statements about how Harry’s blood was worth much more than his own as they entered the secret door just confirms to me his knowledge that he was on borrowed time. The description of his final moments with Draco say several times about how he is slowly sliding down the wall. Then there is Faux if the Phoniex flys from nowhere to intercept a death blow from Voldemort I’m sure that in Hogwarts Snape would not have found killing D so easy unless it was a plan. To just walk right up and blast Dumbledore even in a weakened state is not very believeable to me. Why freeze Harry? To save him he has let him fight more dangerous fights than that before. It was clearly to prevent him from interfering with the plan. Why is Snape still desparately teaching Harry as he flees the castle. No the evidence that Snape is a heroic Marder is just incontovertable. (chuckle) The redemptive pattern he will show and the fact that Harry is considering him an enemy second only to the Dark Lord sets him up to be Harry’s ultimate benefactor and perhaps teaching Harry his most valuable lesson. This will happen and it will be so good. I just don’t see her killing off Harry. That would be selfish and I just don’t see J.K. Rowleing as being able to do it. I don’t think she counts Voldemort as a death because that is a given or possiably because he meets a fate worse than death. That has been hinted at. Using all my Trawlaney powers minis the sherry I would guess Snape and Percy. I feel that there will be more than 2 deaths I can’t see Greyback or Belatrix making it through or the order surviving intact either. Well zap me back! I’m wrong every now and then. Signed the presumptious prognosticator… PP for short.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:24 am
Aaron- I agree with everything you said until the “Harry won’t die” part. Lately, I have been slowly entering the “There is no way on this earth that Harry will be alive by the end of Book 7″ Camp (as much as I wish I haven’t been).
In any event, There is no way that Dumbledore was begging for his life. The proof for that is his reaction to Draco almost killing him. He is no dummy, that Dumbledore- nor is he a weak man. Men like him DO NOT BEG for their lives. Especially considering his take on death.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:39 am
Sorry let out his correspndingly huge mistakes. #1 Tom M Riddle(big mistake) #2 thru whatever anything that has let a murder happen from the Potters to Sedrick. I feel these burden him greatly as he regards them as his failures. #3 His hand. A curse that I believe cost him his life. I will go as far to say again that he was dead before Snapes curse struck him. It was made to look as though Snape struck only to reinforce his acceptance by the Dark ones. Snape is therefore vindicated as he could not kill what was already dead. Thats it lets chew the kud now. Signed the prophetic Prognosticator. Still PP for short.
April 16th, 2007 at 11:49 am
I dunno Penny maybe your right there. Maybe I just can’t see Harry dead just because I don’t want him to be. I will stick to my guns and say he lives just because his death would be so utterly tragic and in the scope of it being a “childrens book” I can’t see her killing off all the young fans greatest hero after she has used Harry to show them so much about growing up and being on the good side in spite of so much being against him. A never give up hero who bites the dust as his reward not sure that is her message, There I go again convincing myself. Why do you think he may croak? signed the puzzled prognosticator. ( still PP
)
April 16th, 2007 at 12:06 pm
PP (perplexing prognosticator) -Well, first of all, JKR has said something to the effect of that this isn’t just a children’s book and it also isn’t your typical fantasy book- so things might not work out perfectly. the good guy doesn’t always completely win. Now, voldemort will be defeated (which will allow Good to triumph over evil), but I don’t think all the loose ends will be tied up neatly leaving Harry to marry Ginny and raising 3 little red-headed-Green-eyed kids (1 with glasses, the other two without) named Lily, James, and Sirius and living in the newly rebuilt cottage in Godric’s Hollow with Harry either being a world famous Quiddich Seeker or the Defense Agains the Dark Arts Teacher. That will NOT be the epilogue of the book (too bad though, it is not only brilliant but original too! Can you detect the sarcasm in my voice? because it is dripping with it!)
Last week I came up with an un-arguable reason why Harry HAS to die, but I didn’t write it down at the time or tell anyone and I can’t remember what it was!! I don’t know if maybe it is just my need to not by tragically dissapointed or depressed if/when Harry actually does die, but I really had a good reason. Argh. Hopefully I’ll remember before podcasting time this week.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Ok I’ll say it again your a bigger tease than J,K. herself. I have an un-argueable reason why he kicks the bucket and I’ll tell you as soon as I remember it. Do you know how absolutely hilarious that is? I know your serious and thats why I can’t stop laughing. Not at you of course just with you. I’m dripping with tears of joy . Glad to see your a PP too. I was gonna call you Prognasticating Penny but yours works too. I’m a PP your a PP were all PP wouldn’t you like to be a PP too? Oh goodness I just realized what I said . Ok I’m going to bed. Signed the probablamatic prognosticator.
April 16th, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Actually, i was calling you the perplexing prognosticator. Actually, I really (unfortunately) am PP. On my birth certificate, my parents put my English name (Penny) and my hebrew name which also starts with a P so legally, my first two initials are PP. it is horrible and I don’t know what they were thinking.
yeah, I really wish I were teasin. My little brain can only hold so much information (and unfortunately, as we have seen in the past, most of that is reserved for stupid and inane pop-cultural references).
April 16th, 2007 at 7:43 pm
A D D and think that all that is quite normal in a busy full life. I would hate to think where my brain stands in the ranking . I was laughing but only because it was funny. Part of your guys ability to entertain without even really trying. I think my name is Hebrew also. I had a professor that always called me older brother to which I replied life is full of golden calfs. Seriously though if it comes back to you type it out right away. The blog talk may well bring it back as I am sure we just opened another can of worms. May need to expand we are filling this blog up! Whats for dinner?
April 16th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
Hey Aaron, have you done the Deathly Hallows Predictions Test on Leaky?? I would be interested to hear some of your prognostications, actually that goes out to everyone, the link is:
http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/#article:9699
April 17th, 2007 at 12:15 am
Ok Greg in Toronto I did take the test. Some of the questions didn’t have the exact answer I was looking for but that is the fun of multiple choice. It was a great tool to actually see what I was thinking. I will try to sum up the main thoughts. Harry Lives (until Penny remembers why he doesn’t)
Snape is good. The final battle will be behind the veil separating Harry from all living allies save one (faux) . I wrote a crazy moment in the book cover blog. Was kinda strange as it just came to me. If you can decifer the delirium there may be some good points in there. I do have a good time with this I must say. Hope everybody else is to.
April 17th, 2007 at 9:35 pm
Ok I’ve been sitting here 12 hours clicking the refresh button and finally decided that everybody else has a life. That was a joke I’m not actually that bad I just have 7 computers in my home and use them for work so it’s a passtime to check mail and post until I figure out when my next train leaves. I just wanted to give a quick prognostication. As we talk about different subjects like Dumbledore or weither Harry lives or dies I go back and listen to the episode that was about that subject. Right now I’m relistening to episode 1 Will Harry Make it? Yesterday I listened to #3 Just how Dead Is Dumbledore, these are fine episodes but the news made me wonder just how differant would these episodes be if Greg and Penny had known then what we know now about the book? Penny made me think of it because in episode 1 she was pretty determined that Harry would live and now seems to have a change of heart. I wonder if Greg is thinking different now? Has anyone elses thoughts changed since last September?
April 18th, 2007 at 9:17 am
I think we are going to revisit this topic…Penny has confided in me that she is convinced now that Harry *has* to die. She has yet to adequately explain herself though.
April 18th, 2007 at 10:29 am
Wow Greg! Wb dude? being ex-military I have a hard time with the independant thought process so I have been waiting for the Master Prognosticator to set me straight.
May 11th, 2007 at 9:07 pm
There’s an interesting theory about house-elves being instrumental in the battle with Voldemort, and the possibility of Ollivander going into hiding to fashion wands for the house-elves: http://swordofgryffindor.com/categories/characters/house-elves/
June 21st, 2007 at 3:23 pm
I have been going through the archives of podcasts and listening to your past episodes but this is the first time I have commented. In this episode you touch upon the issue of animal husbandry and its relation to the position of house elves within harry potter. I think the analogy is a fruitful one and one that Rowling invokes either consciously or unconsciously. Western vegetarianism/veganism has its roots in England and some of the earliest animal rights organizations were started there, principally the RSPCA. Rowling is trading in the stereotypes of animal activists in Hermione’s advocacy and the others’ dismissal of it. Hermione’s SPEW campaign is at best an annoyance, begrudgingly accommodated for by her closest friends, and generally ineffective. Her position is somewhat inconsistent (she still indulges in the benefits of the house elves’ slavery). The press and omnivorous public like to paint animal activists as similarly inconsistent in their views or their expression seemingly I believe to justify their own practices as being ethically defensible (the argument being – hey if THEY can’t bear giving up all cheese or leather or *insert animal product* then it is perfectly acceptable that I continue to indulge in them).
The prevailing view of house elves in Harry Potter’s world is highly speciest, to a far greater extent than exists in our own. Most people have the view that humans are inherently different from animals though when faced with qualifying this distinction, they have a hard time doing so. Without invoking a religious belief, how does one justify not giving equal consideration to “animals” and humans? If one tries to do so on the basis of consciousness or level of awareness, one quickly runs into the problem of those humans who have limited faculties (children, the senile, etc). An adult chicken for instance is more intelligent in some respects (ie awareness of time, the “mirror test,” delayed gratification, puzzles, etc) than a three year old child. Therefore sentience/cognition is not an acceptable basis for distinction and any other argument can be shown to be similarly void. From a moral perspective the interests of animals must be given the same consideration as those of humans.
This raises the question of what is in an animal’s interests? Before I get too far afield, I think it is rather obvious that the practices involved in animal husbandry are not in animal’s interests, nor is the property status that they are afforded in our society. In Harry Potter’s world this is harder to pin down, largely because the house elves are by all indications of equal intelligence to that of the average human. They have a highly developed sense of themselves, that even if largely suppressed, exhibits itself in the odd case like Dobby. The question though of whether to enslave the house elves should not be hard to answer despite the socialization and cultural norms which justify it. If house elves are to be given the same consideration as humans, and the idea of human slavery is viewed as morally abhorent even if for whatever reason the party in question desires that slavery, then house elves should be free to do as they wish, which might very well be a life of servitude. A lot of the finer points of this argument would emerge from a better history of the house elves, and their relation to the wizarding world but the general argument still stands.
If anyone would like to read more about vegetarianism/veganism I would suggest a couple books to explore the basic tenets. The first is Peter Singer’s ground breakign work, Animal Liberation. Published in the mid 1970’s it is the seminal work of the modern animal rights movement and lays out the basic groundwork for the philosophic understanding of animals and their relation to humans. Although dated in some respects it is still quite relevant today. The other is Matthew Scully’s recent book, Dominion. Scully was a speech writer for George Bush and in his book he takes on animal welfare from a conservative/religious perspective (hence the title for anyone familiar with the book of genesis). While I haven’t read it myself yet, it is well regarded and a different perspective on the issue that comes to the same conclusions regarding animals’ relation to humanity.
Hope you got something out of this and thanks for the great podcasts.
Sean
April 1st, 2008 at 7:34 pm
I couldn’t understand some parts of this article Episode #28: S.P.E.W in this – A House Elves Podcast, but I guess I just need to check some more resources regarding this, because it sounds interesting.
May 13th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
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