read it here
http://www.beyondhogwarts.com/harry-potter/articles/into-the-deathly-hallows.html

Could the Deathly Hallows be “the shout that causes death”? Like maybe the AK spell that kills Voldemort?

And similarly to your thoughts about vanquishing not meaning killing, I think someone brought up the point earlier that it never said that Dumbledore KILLED Grindewald. It only says (on the Chocolate Frog card) that he defeated Grindewald. I wonder if those two things will be connected. SHould be interesting.

Interesting point by Janice, which made a whole new thought pop into my head. I have always just assumed that Voldy would die at the end of the series; but the prophecy actually says “The one with the power to VANQUISH….” Maybe Harry won’t have to kill Voldy off to defeat him. After all, Dumbledore seemed to think that leaving Tom Riddle alive would be a worse punishment than killing him; maybe Harry will decide the same thing.

I wanted to add that I really enjoy coming on this site and reading everybody’s opinions. While I love the longer established HP sites as well, I have always been too intimidated to join in the forums because it seems like everything’s been talked about already. It’s nice to come here and feel like I can actually contribute something, maybe.

This is the third episode I have listened to in this series, being kinda new to the whole podcast thing, and I can’t help but strongly feel that Greg is such a pretentious, pompous, self-centered, self-ascribed “Harry Potter” erudite!

To think that he is so self-convinced as to make the following statements in episode #13: “I’ve seen a lot of good theories but haven’t read into them very much because I think… mumble, stutter… I mean…. you know, THIS IS THE WAY I AM, I really think THIS IS THE RIGTH THEORY”… and Penny’s comment when she is FINALLY given a turn to speak about how”we all have to take Greg seriously, but somehow when anybody else talks”… giggle, coments on what Greg is doing which is playing with a puppet, shows his self-centeredness so vividly, he has no respect or regard for what anyone else has to opine, including his podcasting partner!!! And finally, his constant stating that “that’s where the current state of..I guess the HPProgs official theory…” “we’re not saying that other theories are incorrect we just, we’re very beholden to this theory, I think… I think… so that’s where I THINK things are going.” Just as clarification, is Penny part of HPProgs, or just a guest speaker? If she is part of HPProgs, then it seemed very obvious to me that she was not including herself in the absoluteness of GREG’S theory, since a couple of times she tried (to no avail) to interject when he was going on about it. Me, myself and I seems to be Gregs official theory (in my opinion).

I can at least say this one thing, I do agree with this comments on Snape and his final departing “instructions” to Harry. Snape, in my humble, un-pottercated opinion, is a good guy.

Someone made and interesting point about there being a difference between “defeat” and “kill.”

It reminded me of a thought I had back when I first read the prophecy. The prophecy specifically refers to the “Dark Lord” – not to “Tom Riddle”. If the Dark Lord were to lose all of his power and his followers, and become nothing but a shell of Tom Riddle, one could say that the “Dark Lord” is dead (the whole “Dark Lord” being a metamorphisis TR did himself anyway). If Harry were to bring such an end about, he will have metaphorically “killed the Dark Lord” without commiting a literal killing. Makes me wonder if Dumbledore’s insistence on always calling LV “Tom,” and his insistence on teaching Harry about the Tom Riddle that LV used to be, is some sort of hint.

Prophecy’s are tricky, and I wouldn’t put it past JKR to use language in a sneaky way.

I’m also chiming in to say that JKR announced the title of Book 6 on her website on 20th December 2004, and within 24-48 hours, Bloomsbury and Scholastic announced the publication date, 16th July 2005. Apparently, it takes about 6 months from the date of submission of the manuscript, at the least, to edit and print the books. =)

now snape and draco malfoy: i think that draco and snape will join dracos dad as a death eater and will help voldamort find harry and keep track of what harry does.

another thought that i have is thatsnape may die beacuse he made an unbrekuble vowe thathe would not let draco get hurt and if he breakes the that promise he will die. in the 6th book draco dosnt want him to be here and he says he dosnt need a baby sitter. i think draco will go off and get hurt really baddly and snape will get blaimed for it terefor snape will die.

In the meantime, feel free to go to podcast alley and vote for us (shameless self promotion, I know!)

Just wanted to add that I believe there is precedence in the wizarding world for a good wizard’s self/soul surviving intact when they have had to kill another wizard. I believe it’s Sirius who comments about Mad Eye Moody that he always brought dark wizards in alive when possible — implying (I think) that sometimes it WASN’T possible, and it was necessary for Moody to kill them. And Moody is still a good guy (unless we’re in for a big surprise in Book 7).

I think Scrimgeour is going to have to get his act together, quit playing political games, and get to hunting death eaters. You’re right though Penny, why should we expect anything else? I do hope the DA becomes a major force alongside the Order.

I guess we’ll see, and I’m still working on my wife to do a podcast with me!

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/955496.cms

I’ve got an idea about soul splitting and murder though. I think the thing is that the soul splits when you kill someone but it’s not permanent unless you seal that piece in something else, (like a Horcrux). I think it heals and is scarred afterward like any physical part of you after being rent into pieces. Harry will never be the same after he kills Voldemort, of course he won’t, his soul will be whole but scarred, like that of anyone who has been on the front lines of a war.

I had another thought though. Forgive me for this, I’m just thinking in print here. But, what if the Deathly Hallows isn’t the spell with which Lily protected Harry? What if it’s actually the spell Dumbledore tried to use at the ministry? A related spell that would have a debilitating effect on Voldemort. Or what if it’s plural and not a verb? What if it’s the name of an entire subsection of magic which we will find out about somewhere behind that locked door in the department of mysteries? Sort of the super-powerful good guy’s answer to the unforgivable curses.

On an unrelated topic, J. K. said that someone would show magical ability late in life, she also said that there is a member of the order we haven’t met properly yet. I’m taking bets on Arabella Figg being both of those people.. Whaddya think?

Okay I’ve gone on long enough. those are Bev’s thoughts for the day….

You don’t think Harry could summon up enough hatred and anger to AK voldemort? I do.

A lot of people speculate that Harry will use Gryffindor’s sword to do iin old voldie.

This is just a shallow theory that holds no water.

I love the idea of some old fashioned “Muggle Arts” doing in Voldemort. I think a nice crossbow arrow to the heart would do the trick.

I don’t think Harry can use an unforgivable curse – it requires a great deal of hatred and malice just to get AK to work – remember Harry attempted one at Snape? in HBP. I am thinking Harry may learn the spell Dumbledor attempted at the Ministry that Voldermort was only barely able to block with a conjured shield curse. Voldemort only truly feared Dumbledor and there is a reason why. Too many questions.

I hear what you are saying, Webby but as you mentioned JKR is very careful with the words she uses and Dumbleodre doesn’t respond to Harry that he must DEFEAT Vold.= he tells Harry that he’s Got to kill him- he do esn’t say straight out the word kill but he unquestionably responds to Harry’s statement of killing.

I have always wondered whether it would be justified for Harry to use an unforgivable (specifically AK) to kill Vold. I don’t know that there is another curse, jinx, hex etc. that would do the job. Me thinks it is time for Harry to go out to a shooting range and practice on some old Muggle rifles (how would that be for poetic justice to Voldemort)!

We (sort of ) discussed Godrics Hollow on Holloween. I am not sure what will happen there but would love to speculate on it. Perhaps we should discuss that whenever we debate with you and your wife (when will that happen?!?)

Finally- here is where I totally disagree with you (in the friendliest way of course). Do you really think that Rufus Scrimgeour is a “decent leader”? I think he is just as much of a figure head leader as fudge was. I also think he is trying so hard to show the world that he is on top of things with the volemort/death eater situation that he is completely ignoring the real problems. Remember the Stan Shunpike encarceration? Scrimgeour is so worried about how he looks in the wizarding world that he not only once- but twice approached Harry to be the “poster boy” for the ministry. Luckily, Harry didn’t fall for his manipulations. I think we have a far way to go before there is decent and effective leadership in the Ministry.

Perhaps once Arthur Weasley becomes the minister, things will actually change.

Dumbledor “defeated” Grindewald. Harry “defeated” Voldermort the first time and obviously did not “kill” him. JKR is very careful when she uses defeat and killed. You can defeat someone without killing them – even the Dementors do not kill, just suck out the soul.

So, yes Harry has to attempt to “kill” Voldemort (per your paraphrase – and I remember that exchange as well and you are accurate in your recall). But I do not think Harry will actually “kill” Voldemort. Harry will defeat Voldemort and Voldemort will die, but Harry will not kill him. To kill another is an act of purpose and malice in other words murder, to kill with intent. And that act will split the soul. JKR has put too much emphasis on that issue for Harry to become a murderer – no matter how noble the act. Voldemort will have to die in battle with Harry – just not at the hands of Harry.

And with that, this is where I disagree with Greg. Harry will live. Volemort made the prophecy self-fulfilling, and it would be a cheap way out (from a literary sense) for Harry to die. Quoting from the last line of the prophecy “And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives.” So one has to survive. Both cannot die. This will lead to argument of choice over fate, but throwing in religious doctrine, you can have both. Your fate is determined, but your choices also define you fate. It’s sacred logic, not mortal logic. Or we could say Hallow Logic (ok – bad pun).

So maybe we read too much into this and should sometimes look at this on face value. Grindewald was “defeated” not killed, so Dumbledor’s soul is intact. Harry “defeated” Voldemort the first time – he was not killed obviously.

Ooh, I just had a tought that may undermine my own theory… Does your soul split only when killing with an unforgivable curse? Is it possible to kill in defense of oneself while not using an unforgivable curse and not split your soul? Dumbledor knew the Dark Arts, but chose not to use them. So could Harry kill Voldemort without intent and still keep his soul intact? (or does this still lend credence to my theory anyway – my head is spinning).

Anyway, I think this is weak on JKR’s side- I think thi is her way of telling her readers that we are setting too much store by the prophecy. I think she wrote the prophecy in OoTP and then when she was writing HBP she realized it did not fit in with waht will ultimately happen and she had to back pedal a bit. Just a thought.

Webby -I remember this , but you are forgetting that Dumbledore also told Harry that he MUST kill voldemort. In HBP when Harry and Dumbledore were discussing the horcruxes and the prophecy this is how part of the conversation went (don’t laugh I am writing this from memory so it may not be exactly right):
“I’ve got to try and kill him, or – ”
“Got to? Of course you’ve got to! But not because of the prophecy! Because you, yourself, will never rest until you’ve tried! We both know it! Imagine, please, just for a moment, that you had never heard of the prophecy! How would you feel about Voldemort now? Think!”
Harry thought. He thought of his mother, his father, and sirius. He thought of Cedric Diggory. He thought of all the terrible things Voldemoret had done. A flame seemed to leap inside his chest searing his throat.
“I’d want him finished. And I’d want to do it.”
“Of course you would!”

Dumbledore is not only Not telling Harry Not to kill Voldemort (any English teacher would have a feel day with that sentence) but he is actively acknowledging that Harry MUST do it. I think the difference between Harry killing Voldemort and Draco killing Dumbledore is the purpose. Harry is killing Voldemort, not just to exact revenge (although that is probably the motivating factor that will enable Harry to do it) but to free the world of his evil. Draco would have killed Dumbledore for no reason other than the fact that Voldemort ordered him to do so (with the threat of killing him and his family)- no greater good there.

Also, don’t forget. Dumbledore defeated the dark wizard Grindewald. I am assuming that means he killed him. I think DUmbledore realizes that sometimes a person must kill another one in order to achieve a greater good (which sort us brings us back to the conversation on snape and whether the ends justifies the means with his killing of Dumbledore).

Finally, in that same chapter in HBP, Dumbledore himself says that Harry is setting too much store by the prophecy. Dumbledore asks harry , “do you think that every prophecy in the hall of prophesies has been fulfilled? Of course not.” I think this was a bit weak on the part of JKR

Sorry for the “spam” folks, but I’m not sure how to contact you otherwise?

That Hallow’s Eve, Voldemort went to kill Harry because he was a perceived threat to him, and therefore went with malicious intent. In his mind, it was a single minded-act. Did James have to die? Yes, because you have the inference that he is a descendent of Godric Griffendor and James’ death would also have meaning. This would also lend to the theory that more than one horcrux/artifact was at the cottage. Lily was not important to Voldemort in that respect – so she had a choice.

The same cannot be said for Narcissa. Voldemort would want to dispose of Lucious and Draco because of their failures, not the threat of them, so if Narcissa were to sacrifice herself for either of their lives, it would be only a casualty of circumstance. So if not the Malfoy’s, then who?

Ah, I say the Weasley’s. The Weasley’s are also one of the few remaining “pure” wizarding families left. But the fact has not been very prominent and I think it will become front and center here. What if the Weasley’s – or more specifically Molly Weasley was a descendent of Goddric Griffendor and not the Potter’s? She has the clock and Dumbledor has made specific references to the uniqueness of the clock before – it has special qualities not seen anywhere else in the wizarding world. Would make sense, too, along with the sorting hat as well.

So maybe Molly will die sacrificing herself for? Harry again? Voldermort is prone to forgetting details – his primary weakness given his hubris and quest for power. I think there may be more to Molly than meets the eye here. She is always the most prominent family member outside of Ron. She has always thought of Harry as a son – so there is great love in that relationship.

It would have to be a powerful sacrifice to invoke that kind of magic again and I cannot think of any other relationship strong enough to rival that. Yes, Narcissa loves Draco, but I don’t think the bond is that strong, it seems more out of self preservation than anything – the Malfoy family never really displayed any type of personal strength. Voldemort does not fear the Malfoy’s, but he has deep respect of the four founders and any descendent would demand that from him. Harry is a threat according to the prophecy, nothing more. I don’t think Harry is a Griffendor descendent, the Weasley children are – remember, Harry pulled out the sword defending Ginny Weasley.

Wow, that actually ties in quite nicely. Thoughts on this direction?

For me the big question is what role does Hogwarts play in the final installment? It’s the source of old magic and there’s a HUGE braintrust there in the form of former head masters. How is Ms. Rowling going to get the kids back to school? I believe it has to happen. I can see three houses returning, with the Slytherins going their own way. The magical world is now in open warfare and The Order along with The DA should play a pivotal role in the final book.

Other big questions: What’s the significance of Godric’s Hallow? Who’s going to die? How many of the Weasley’s will make it? Now that the Ministry has a decent leader, what role do they play? Will the Minister be able to unite the wizarding community?

It’s going to be a fun ride, and I hope Webby is right and it’s 1200+ pages!